This is from the first few hands of the second level (300/600/50) of day 2. I had been somewhat active, opening a decent amount in late position. Had also 3b/f once and 3b/squeezed a QJxT board and checked behind river without showdown (villain had JJ). Only hands I showed down were KK and AA.

I had 80k, villain 1 had 115k and villain 2 probably had 85-95k.

Villain 1 is Sean Rice. In his 20s, some live results and also had some online results. Was pretty active first level and seemed smart/competent. Villain 2 was in his 30s with some live results, but not much. He had only showed down AA but had been flatting a few raises and 3bets but never going to showdown.

I open KTdd UTG+1 to 1300, villain 1 flats in sb and villain 2 flats in the bb.

Flop is 753ddd. Checks to me and I bet 2.4k, sb c/rs to 6.5k. bb asks sb how much he has behind and then 3bets to 13.5k.

How do you proceed?

I didn't have any reads/timing tells. Both players tanked for a bit before acting.

wooow havent seen such a ugly spot for a long time.
the only good thing about calling is that we get to see what rice does, he almost never has like the naked Ad cause he prolly wouldnt flat many offsuit Aces pre.
the bb def could flat 46dd pre with the caller in the SB, tough to say tho how often he would 3bet that hand on the flop.
i think folding here is def an option even tho it looks like insanity if we fold a floped K high flush on the flop, but its just the 3rd nuts and they both rep like super strong hands.
i dont see BB having a set here of a lower flush often, to me this looks like the nizzels and we are in a very akeward turn spot no matter what card peels. we basically would just hope that rice doesnt 4bet the flop and the actions slows down on the turn.not sure tho if folding or calling is the move here.
idk def hating life for the next few levels.

Obviously its a very sick spot . If you call the flop 3 bet than it will obv put you in a very bad spot on the turn if the BB decides to continue with pressure, assuming Sean Rice folds on flop. I would probably call on the flop and see what the BB does on the turn.

Not trying to be results oriented, but is our hand too strong here to be checking back flop and trying to get two streets of value? Theres a lot of turns that make people top pair, or if a straightening card comes, it is conceivable to have hit one of the blinds... Also, it's kind of hard for you to have a 6-x/4-x hand very often from utg+1, so it's likely that one of the players will think you are repping 00s.

Then again, when we do bet this flop, the likelihood of getting checkraised and then bb 3betting the c/r cold is extremely unlikely, so it's not really something to worry about. In this case, I guess its really player dependent... what the history is between Rice and villain 2. It's tough to know whether villain 2 would do this with just the Ad, or a worse flush or value hand.

That is as good of a spot you are going to get with your hand. He could have A high flush or draw. Lower flushes are possible along with a set. I say jam it. I can't see myself folding and if he has it then congrats to him. See you wsop2013

Clearly this is a tough spot. Online I think I just shove & be done with it, but live it's different.

Unless we put one of them on exactly 64dd or Axdd we're ahead right now. Also surely both those hands just flat any raise & let us keep firing away? Much more likely one or both of them has a set or one has the Ad so anything that pairs the board or another diamond is bad. So I'd raise again. I think calling just lets them draw to improve their hand. Even if we end up putting 40k of our 80k in the pot & have to fold to a shove we're not crippled. I think raise>fold>shove>call.

That said I'm terrible anyway.

One single thing I'd add: if we think this is a sick spot with the 2nd nuts, why in hell would we EVER shove? If we are ahead, let aggressor do the betting. If we are willing to put all our chips in the middle, we need to do so against the wider range possible, and shoving accomplishes exactly the opposite

 

Originally Posted by UPayMeOff

i havent seen such an idiotic bunch of posters. your obviously shipping that shit. you dont want to lose a chunk of ur stack flatting and then having to fold if another diamond comes off.odds are bb has a lower flush or set. sb was probably being a jack ass.

u have just have no clue if this is an easy spot for u

and btw we have the 3rd nuts not the 2nd nuts

 

Originally Posted by Betterman

Much more likely one or both of them has a set or one has the Ad so anything that pairs the board or another diamond is bad. So I'd raise again. I think calling just lets them draw to improve their hand. Even if we end up putting 40k of our 80k in the pot & have to fold to a shove we're not crippled. I think raise>fold>shove>call.

I like the idea personally but instead of "if we get 40k of 80k in & fold etc..." why not make it idk 22k-24k total. It's such a small raise it screams monster since there is no way we never have anything but a flush here. If another jams then fold and we still have ~59k at 300/600 which is obv not the worst thing ever. Being so small any set probably calls since its "priced in" and kinda knows where it's at in the hand and idk if a flush folds, you know the players tendencies better then i do.


Only thing I'm thinking while typing this is if you min raise esentially and someone flats, life is almost as bad as it gets...but will that really happen?

 

Originally Posted by razorpoker2002

I think if we reraise here we kill all of our action. That's why I like a flat. Let him bet again I'm not worried about the ace of diamonds drawing. I can't see either player raising with just the ace of diamonds.

Just because I'm curious and not sure what's exactly what would be consider "correct" If your V1 or V2, do you fold a set? Top set = jam/ bottom set = fold ? I ask because thats anything our raise can accomplish is get more chips in the pot from those 3 specific hands. Also with both villains in the blinds, is 46, let alone with a diamond a possible hand for either villain here?

 

Originally Posted by andressoprano

One single thing I'd add: if we think this is a sick spot with the 2nd nuts, why in hell would we EVER shove? If we are ahead, let aggressor do the betting. If we are willing to put all our chips in the middle, we need to do so against the wider range possible, and shoving accomplishes exactly the opposite

Definitely this ^^^

 

Originally Posted by UPayMeOff

i havent seen such an idiotic bunch of posters. your obviously shipping that shit. you dont want to lose a chunk of ur stack flatting and then having to fold if another diamond comes off.odds are bb has a lower flush or set. sb was probably being a jack ass.

Definitely NOT this ^^^

Will post a more detailed response when i find some time...

ugly spot for sure, def being this deep

As most have posted here i'm for calling and seeing what V1 does/what happens on different turns, given V2 description i'd say there is a chance he jams a Ahi flush draw + pair on this board and sets so 4balling to gii vs him might be decent, hard to 4b flop and have to fold vs V1 though imo

I don't really see any other options other than call/reeval.

 

Originally Posted by TheHighRoad

Just because I'm curious and not sure what's exactly what would be consider "correct" If your V1 or V2, do you fold a set? Top set = jam/ bottom set = fold ? I ask because thats anything our raise can accomplish is get more chips in the pot from those 3 specific hands. Also with both villains in the blinds, is 46, let alone with a diamond a possible hand for either villain here?

I think once we flat the bb's raise the only range either of the blinds will put us on is top set or a made flush. i am not going to like it at all if either of them lead the turn but unless the board pairs on the turn or river im going broke here. i expect the sb to fold here so id say it will be heads up going to the turn and river. i am not folding unless the board pairs.

Thanks everyone for the comments.

I had only had about 2 hours of play with the table, which live when everyone is tanking on every decision meant maybe 40-50 hands at most. I tanked for a couple minutes after the flop 3b and played the out the various scenarios. I'll run through my thoughts and the resulting action before responding to a few points above. Sorry it's long.

Flat: Pros of flatting are we get to see 1 more card, are in position and can reevaluate based on the turn/river action. Cons of flatting are that the sb was definitely capable and is still to act. If he has the Ad, it's an absurdly good spot to 5b the flop or flat and barrel turn/river, especially when 125+bbs deep if he thinks his opponents are competent and/or scared to bust. Consequently, we put ourselves in a spot where we're guessing a lot, even on non diamond/paired board turns and rivers. And if the bb was making a play, the sb could take this line a lot, bb folds and we're in the dark. Since the pot was 45k+ if I flat, calling any turn bet from either player probably results in committing 20k+. In hindsight, the one flaw with this line of thinking is that it assumes sb has the Ad and is likely to make a play, when probably only 25-40% of his range includes Ad.

Fold: I really thought about folding. Mainly because I hated the spots that flatting would put me in on the turn/river and also didn't like 4b/folding. Biggest issue with folding was that sb's range was so much wider than the nut flush and for no specific reason, I really didn't think bb would 3b the straight or nut flush. I was learning towards him having a set or assuming sb was making a play and he was making a bigger one. Folding a K high flush on the flop seemed absurd and I convinced myself folding was more playing scared than thinking rationally.

Raise: As much as I hate raising for information, a 4b on the flop allows us to get a lot more information about our opponents ranges and makes playing subsequent streets more straightfoward. Sb can't continue without Ad or a set, so it removes a lot of hands from his range. He might even fold a set since bb still has the option to raise. Once a 4b is made on the flop, it becomes super high variance for the sb to rep the nut flush since he has to assume we're good enough to fold the non-nut flush. Obvious problem is we can lose a lot of value by raising, but there's 27-28k in the middle already, which is a ton of chips when at 300/600, so making future streets easy but potentially losing value seemed like the an acceptable low variance line, which was preferable given the great structure of the ME and a workable stack, whether I won or 4b and had to fold later. I definitely understand the posts above that a 4b kills most of our action, but at the same time you have to weigh chipping up to 100k+ at 300/600 without getting into gross turn/river spots and risking going bust.

Decision: As you might guess from the above, I decided to 4b the flop. I basically cib'd and 4b to 22k. My thought was although I might lose value, I commit 20k on the flop and can easily play the turn/river instead of setting up really tough spots on those streets as well. The option of flatting would have committed 11k on the flop and probably 15k-25k on the turn and maybe chips on the river as well. At the end of the day, I decided this was the lowest risk/lowest variance line (other than folding) and if I was good, still allowed me to scoop a decent pot.

Results: Both the sb and bb flatted my raise, which was pretty gross. If sb reraised I was probably going to fold. If the bb reraised, I was going to reevaluate based on sizing and “white magic” (lol Hellmuth). The turn was Ah (wrong red ace!). The sb led 12k or 14k, bb called and I folded. River was a brick (black 2 or 3). sb bet a little less than 20k and bb called. Sb tabled AJdd and bb later said he had a Q high flush with outs, so I presume Q4dd or Q6dd.

Given the way the hand played out, I probably could have flatted flop and folded after a bet and call on the turn. But, to be honest, I still hate flatting the 3b because if the bb was making a play and folds the turn, the turn and river become a complicated guessing game.

@ everyone saying shove. It's terrible. I have 80k behind with a great structure and I'm never ever getting called by worse in this event. Pretty sure even sets fold. Shoving is by far the worst option.

@manch 1st post, yup, exactly. In response to your 2nd post, in hindsight, checking back flop would have worked well. Problem is we lose a ton of value from AdXx, sets, over pairs, floats, bluffs, etc. Also, turn can bring a lot of cards that could kill our action vs. weaker hands.

@matze, yeah, not too many offsuit aces in his range, but he was deep enough and imo, good enough, to flat and profitably play AT-AKo oop. I also don't think he's 3betting those hands since he was pretty competent and a lot of people prefer playing small ball when oop.

@TheHighRoad – it's super gross but I think sb should fold a set after a raise. Given how deep stacks are, flatting a set on the flop if I flat or fold is probably correct.

@TheVillageGrinder - plan going into the day was to focus on playing in position vs. the 3 big stacks to my right and pick on the 4 30-50bb stacks on my left. Problem was 2 of those 4 busted in the first level and were replaced by aggro players with decent stacks, so my plan was still in flux as I didn't have great reads at the time.