For some reason, it feels as though it's a good thing that he makes another raise on the flop, as you can straight away discount the straight flush and it makes the nut flush a bit less likely, surely
so w/o reading the results u posted i think SB range for flating offsuit Aces is like AK-AJ, dont think a compenetn player will flat ATo and prolly AJo there OOP but obv dúnno depends how good of a player he really is and reads and stuff.so cant say for sure.Edited By: matze_widi Jul 18th, 2012 at 12:14 PM
but i think its more likely SB has a set or makes a move and BB range would be Ad, and flushes. i dont think he just randonly 3bets a set here on this board, cause there is just not a lot of value 3betting a set here i would think.
i mean is BB really 3betting getting a Q,J high flush here in for like over 100bb. tough to say w/o any specific reads. maybe i just assume too much what i would do in their shoes.
or maybe i´m just a nit but in a 10k live ME MTT i think BB has a really tough time 3bet sets and low flushes here. but maybe he´s just bad and 3bet/folds them for infos.
the good thing about cib is that SB basically has to fold everything besides the nud flush and 64dd obv and BB will never 5bet us w/o having us beat, so it is prolly a cheaper way then calling and reeav turns which is gonna be ugly anyway if one of them keeps betting
I love threads like these. The knowledge gained, by micro/ midstakes players, from just observing great poker minds is undervalued. It is great being able to see the thoughts of top tier players. Thanks for sharing with us.
I'm checking flop because a majority of the time the villians are gonna be super weak and it will be hard to get 3 streets of value. By checking flop you're making one pairs and weaker flush draws feel more confident and you're more likely to get 2 streets of value from medium strength hands. I don't think it's important to bet the flop because villians aren't very likely to have the Ad unless it's Axss and even if they do only have the Ad you're only banking one street of value gtd and leaving villians hand pretty face up. Players in 10ks are aware of how their hand strength will be precieved and therefore you're not leaving them any room to represent a larger range by forcing them to c/c or c/r flop. Even if a villian flopped a set you're most likely only getting 2 streets of value as well. The only action killer turns are diamonds and most likely it will blank. I dont view the board pairing as an action killer because if a 7,5,3 peels , villians wont include those cards in your range so in a situation where you check flop and it's checked to you turn, you can still feel comfortable betting and if you get bet into turn, depending on villian, you can still be comfortable raising turn for value. I think whenever you flop a flush that isnt the nut flush you should try and seek 2 streets of value unless you've flatted or made a 3b+ and/or were called, then I think it's important to seek 3 streets.
Thanks everyone for the comments.
I had only had about 2 hours of play with the table, which live when everyone is tanking on every decision meant maybe 40-50 hands at most. I tanked for a couple minutes after the flop 3b and played the out the various scenarios. I'll run through my thoughts and the resulting action before responding to a few points above. Sorry it's long.
Flat: Pros of flatting are we get to see 1 more card, are in position and can reevaluate based on the turn/river action. Cons of flatting are that the sb was definitely capable and is still to act. If he has the Ad, it's an absurdly good spot to 5b the flop or flat and barrel turn/river, especially when 125+bbs deep if he thinks his opponents are competent and/or scared to bust. Consequently, we put ourselves in a spot where we're guessing a lot, even on non diamond/paired board turns and rivers. And if the bb was making a play, the sb could take this line a lot, bb folds and we're in the dark. Since the pot was 45k+ if I flat, calling any turn bet from either player probably results in committing 20k+. In hindsight, the one flaw with this line of thinking is that it assumes sb has the Ad and is likely to make a play, when probably only 25-40% of his range includes Ad.
Fold: I really thought about folding. Mainly because I hated the spots that flatting would put me in on the turn/river and also didn't like 4b/folding. Biggest issue with folding was that sb's range was so much wider than the nut flush and for no specific reason, I really didn't think bb would 3b the straight or nut flush. I was learning towards him having a set or assuming sb was making a play and he was making a bigger one. Folding a K high flush on the flop seemed absurd and I convinced myself folding was more playing scared than thinking rationally.
Raise: As much as I hate raising for information, a 4b on the flop allows us to get a lot more information about our opponents ranges and makes playing subsequent streets more straightfoward. Sb can't continue without Ad or a set, so it removes a lot of hands from his range. He might even fold a set since bb still has the option to raise. Once a 4b is made on the flop, it becomes super high variance for the sb to rep the nut flush since he has to assume we're good enough to fold the non-nut flush. Obvious problem is we can lose a lot of value by raising, but there's 27-28k in the middle already, which is a ton of chips when at 300/600, so making future streets easy but potentially losing value seemed like the an acceptable low variance line, which was preferable given the great structure of the ME and a workable stack, whether I won or 4b and had to fold later. I definitely understand the posts above that a 4b kills most of our action, but at the same time you have to weigh chipping up to 100k+ at 300/600 without getting into gross turn/river spots and risking going bust.
Decision: As you might guess from the above, I decided to 4b the flop. I basically cib'd and 4b to 22k. My thought was although I might lose value, I commit 20k on the flop and can easily play the turn/river instead of setting up really tough spots on those streets as well. The option of flatting would have committed 11k on the flop and probably 15k-25k on the turn and maybe chips on the river as well. At the end of the day, I decided this was the lowest risk/lowest variance line (other than folding) and if I was good, still allowed me to scoop a decent pot.
Results: Both the sb and bb flatted my raise, which was pretty gross. If sb reraised I was probably going to fold. If the bb reraised, I was going to reevaluate based on sizing and “white magic” (lol Hellmuth). The turn was Ah (wrong red ace!). The sb led 12k or 14k, bb called and I folded. River was a brick (black 2 or 3). sb bet a little less than 20k and bb called. Sb tabled AJdd and bb later said he had a Q high flush with outs, so I presume Q4dd or Q6dd.
Given the way the hand played out, I probably could have flatted flop and folded after a bet and call on the turn. But, to be honest, I still hate flatting the 3b because if the bb was making a play and folds the turn, the turn and river become a complicated guessing game.
@ everyone saying shove. It's terrible. I have 80k behind with a great structure and I'm never ever getting called by worse in this event. Pretty sure even sets fold. Shoving is by far the worst option.
@manch 1st post, yup, exactly. In response to your 2nd post, in hindsight, checking back flop would have worked well. Problem is we lose a ton of value from AdXx, sets, over pairs, floats, bluffs, etc. Also, turn can bring a lot of cards that could kill our action vs. weaker hands.
@matze, yeah, not too many offsuit aces in his range, but he was deep enough and imo, good enough, to flat and profitably play AT-AKo oop. I also don't think he's 3betting those hands since he was pretty competent and a lot of people prefer playing small ball when oop.
@TheHighRoad – it's super gross but I think sb should fold a set after a raise. Given how deep stacks are, flatting a set on the flop if I flat or fold is probably correct.
@TheVillageGrinder - plan going into the day was to focus on playing in position vs. the 3 big stacks to my right and pick on the 4 30-50bb stacks on my left. Problem was 2 of those 4 busted in the first level and were replaced by aggro players with decent stacks, so my plan was still in flux as I didn't have great reads at the time.
I like flatting because u have the 2nd nuts and you know what you dont want to see (board pair or diamond turn) i just think the 4 bet would scare off alot of hands like 2 pair and draws. if a diamond turns it would obv be horrible but then you could re eval? idk just what i think
but i agree jamming is the worst option
i get it in every time there. it's just UL.
if i read this right, you flopped a K high flush in a spot where your hand is under-repped, against the SB and BB?
seems to me, even 150 BB deep, there are some many worse hands villian will get it in with here that your only mission is to get your chips into the pot.
I'm Villain 1 in this hand. I'm glad you posted it, because I was thinking about doing it myself. Probably one of the most thought provoking/absurd hands I've ever been involved in, live or online.
After you 4b the flop, I honestly didn't know what to think, because it was so unexpected. Given that I didn't think you were ever opening 46dd from UTG1 (or 4b the flop with it the off chance you did), I perceived your range to be mainly air simply through process of elimination. As advised by most posters in this thread, I assumed you would flat in pos with K-hi flushes and below.
Villain 2 (BB) had over 100k to start this hand iirc, and definitely gave off a splasher image. So when he c/r/r'd this flop, I actually gave him a much stronger range given his sizing and large number of diamond combos he could have in his pre flop range.
I strongly considered cib 5b the flop at first, since I agree that it would be a sick spot to do it with the Ad blocker. But given my reads above, I didn't see much merit to it if I'm going to make the SB fold his worse flushes and have you snap fold and end the madness. Plus (in my mind), in the off chance you were 4b with K-hi flushes and worse, it might be enough to make you either fold the flop, or call and fold to most bets on turns.
This is why I ended up just flatting the flop 4b. As strong as it looked, I thought there was much more value in this line to keep worse hands in, including the BB who would have a tough time clicking the fold button in a live setting getting those kinds of pot odds. Based on this logic, I decided to take this line with the plan of leading the turn small. Iirc my sizing was 14k on the turn, into a pot of over 70k. After just the BB called, I believe he had ~65-70k behind on river. In game, I certainly gave more emotional weight toward the possibility of him having 46dd (which he can most credibly rep between the three of us). So I will admit my river sizing of 18k was dual-purposed to price in the widest range possibly of worse flushes and give myself the ridiculous possibility of folding to a river shove. In hindsight, this was pretty absurd, given the severity of the cooler and the chance he would shove the river with 4dXd or 6dXd trying to get me to fold the 2nd nuts or worse. This is the kind of chaotic thinking that ensues in the Main Event I suppose.
Anyways, the BB actually ended up showing me 42dd after he called. I didn't believe you had the K-hi flush when I overheard you tell somebody that. Hell of a fold man, and great to hear your thought process on the hand.
Wow, i would have jammed and said to myself "watch em have Ax D'monds..."
BLUEberLEEZ text me this hand after Tyson sent it to him......Made me respect your game even more.. Its so sick having to fold that turn.