I'm never comfortable 3b/calling for this much here...Maybe it's a leak in my game, but I'd always just flat and go from there. And in all honesty, I prolly lose this pot more than I win it oop :S

With the given history...and the fact you're oop, I flat.

Not sure if he'll give you credit for anything here w/ 3bet from the blinds again. He probably will 4bet pretty wide here, and calling the 4bet would invest too many of your chips at this point, for a hand like 77 at least.

Just my thoughts=o

 

Originally Posted by Spraggs

Flattttttttttttttt

^^ This. Flop A-7-5.....easy double up :-)

You're already in for 4K. It's a 2.5xR from position which most likely means he's not looking at a monster. However, if you 3bet to 25K and he shoves, you have to fold, if he calls, ????. If you see a flop you don't like, it's easy to get away when you just flat. If you 3bet pre and see a dangerous flop, you've set the stage for him to steal.

IMO -- Flat. See a flop. You still have a ton of chips, fold if you don't like how it plays out.

 

Originally Posted by sgildea25

However, if you 3bet to 25K and he shoves, you have to fold...

No you don't. Villain is opening the button, and from the sounds of it (and from what I've seen from villain, limited experience tho), he is probably capable of 4-betting pretty wide here. edit: i talked with OP about this hand and was semi-watching the table at the time fwiw.

I don't really know what's optimal here OP. Flatting is the easy answer because it can't be "bad," but vs some guys 3b/c can def be better. It takes a pretty aggro muthafucka for me to confidently just 3b/c here though, so I have to leave that up to you and your feel for this guy.

So ya, flat most of the time, and be ready to call heaps of cbets (even on not so great boards).

 

Originally Posted by doubledave22

if ur ahead of his 4bet range lol then why dont u 3b/get it in

i dont think u are ahead of his 4b range considering u only 3b him once. you need a better read like how hes been playing other ppl etc before u can profitably 3b/c

he's been 3betting, and had just 3bet me the hand before in an obvious spot

 

Originally Posted by darkhawk-200

well even if i think i'm slightly ahead of his 4betting range, should i take the flat line or the 3bet/call line considering it's the FT bubble, and i'm 3rd in chips.

it all depends on ur read man if u think hes shoving 5s on u then sure go for it but u should have a pretty good read on the dude if its the FT bubble and hes CL. Im flatting here alot just cause i dont think with ur history/lack of read hes gonna be jamming worse often enough.

 

Originally Posted by darkhawk-200

my read was he's loose enough and it was the perfect spot for him to shove light. Stack size, situation(FT bubble with him as CL), bb vs button, the fact he 3bet me last hand, the fact that i 3bet him last round.

What you said here makes a fair bit of sense and can certainly be the case, but you've gotta be careful. Just because YOU see all these things doesn't mean villain does. And like Dave was saying, whether you guys had a dynamic where he'd very often 4bet you wide here (smaller pairs and even worse) is really hard to say.

I dont know about this, I mean I don't think we need to put so much at risk even if we do marginally beat his 4b range....Why get in to a big confrontation with what looks like the only other good player at the table in such a marginal spot? I'm all for pushing edges but this is unnecessary I think. By the sounds of it you can still shit all over the other players at your table. You're gonna have like 40BBs to start FT which is more than good enough. I know it sounds outrageous, but I seriously think I like turning this hand in to a bluff 3 bet folding rather than 3 bet calling, and I really don't like that very much lol. I would say flatting is fine, and also flatting with the intention of turning your hand in to a bluff on non set boards I think is a better risk too. Basically I'm just trying to say that I prefer riskier plays throughout the hand that may be unconventional but that dont' put my tournament life on the line in a spot where I'm so comfortable playing these players with 40BBs, or even 20BBs, rather than get in a huge confrontation vs the only good player who has me covered. I don't know, I typed this very fast on my way out the door, I'll read it over later and edit it to make it clearer. Bottom line I think its unneccessary risk and there's other ways to play this hand besides simply set mining that will win the pot often enough and not force us to just roll out 5 cards in a marginal spot when your skill edge is much more valuable in the overall situation.....

A couple extra thoughts.....
Yes you probably are ahead of his 4 bet range overall....and no you're not always racing for those that said that....what about A2-A7, 22-77 etc..
The set mining line: Yes it is unreal to hit sets, but we can't assume that every time we hit it he's going to double us through, that's completely unrealistic. In fact, alot of times we hit that set we're essentially turning our hand in to air when we drag the pot and don't go to showdown.....think about that...
I think you really just have to adapt to the post flop situation here, I mean if you can't play well post flop then that's a major leak in tourneys....I think flatting is fine with the intention of not just giving up on every non set board, situations will come up where a flop C/R may take down the pot alot, or other flop textures where he may try and take a pot control line with his full range by checking by flop where we can try and C/R his turn bet etc. There are other ways to play this pot that add risk but in a different way. I would prefer to analyse the situation post flop and risk chips in unconventional lines as my risk factor in this hand rather than just 3 bet call here and just essentially 'pray' that I'm crushing his hand AND then win the rollout. That seems like such a bad, unneccessary risk to me where I have no control over the result.......
Try and think of unconventional ways to drag this pot rather than standard 3b/call lines....its atleast worth considering....
cheers

 

Originally Posted by JBT449

You will be "gambling" against a much tighter 4 bet range since stickypiff will not think OP is 3bet folding as often with 10bbs less.

this

but honestly if ur ahead of a range then get ur chips in i think its a pretty simple concept

for one 3bet calling is definately playing to win.

set mining is a bad concept here when he's opening extremely light. His opening range is so light it's never paying me off when I hit. I'm basically flatting to play a small pot oop.

Also I worry a lot about getting barreled here and have to fold the 77's on later streets.

the 3bet/call was definately my idea of playing for the win, but obviously i have doubt as it goes against normal tournament strategy as I lose equity as one of the bigger stacks. How much equity do I lose in terms of money if I know 100% it's a flip for example. Also if i do win the hand, I become the CL and I have the leverage.

What I wonder about is, in higher buyin tournies I see clashes between big stacks all the time. Why is there no flatting in those tournaments.

Given the stacks and the 3betting history, I think flatting is the path i would take. I want to play small pots with small pairs oop sitting this deep. If u flat, you give yourself more options on the flop and will have no problem getting away given that you have invested so little.

If you choose to 3bet i think you should be willing to get it all in when he shoves. If you are okay with that 3betting is a good option.

My only problem with 3betting here is that he could be flatting a wide range given your history. And you are now seeing a flop in a huge pot oop with a decent hand that is prob improving at any point.

If either of the stacks were smaller, say 25-35 bbs, i love the shove, just fyi.