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tough spot...help!!!

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  1. HammerU HammerU is offline

    Wethersfield, CT
    United States

    Posts: 385
    Joined: Jul 06

    Oct 3rd, 2007 (10/3/2007 1:42pm)

    I have been opening my game up alot more lately with raises with suited connectors when the antis kick in...it has been working great but occasionally I get in a very tough spot like this.

    I like my play up until the turn...but how should I play this turn?

    #will post results after a few responces

    Full Tilt Poker Game #3744742499: $5 + $0.50 Rebuy (28459297), Table 1 - 120/240 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 13:22:59 ET - 2007/10/03
    Seat 2: VTpokerENG (14,489)
    Seat 3: crapshot1 (19,295)
    Seat 4: HammerU173 (9,688)
    Seat 5: Pelopidas (17,933)
    Seat 6: imnew53 (13,992)
    Seat 7: p7a77 (14,381)
    Seat 8: stofflan (4,468)
    Seat 9: jwpoker4 (3,835)
    VTpokerENG antes 25
    crapshot1 antes 25
    HammerU173 antes 25
    Pelopidas antes 25
    imnew53 antes 25
    p7a77 antes 25
    stofflan antes 25
    jwpoker4 antes 25
    jwpoker4 posts the small blind of 120
    VTpokerENG posts the big blind of 240
    The button is in seat #8
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to HammerU173 [4d 6d]
    crapshot1 folds
    HammerU173 has 15 seconds left to act
    HammerU173 raises to 640
    Pelopidas calls 640
    imnew53 folds
    p7a77 folds
    stofflan folds
    jwpoker4 folds
    VTpokerENG folds
    *** FLOP *** [2d 4h As]
    HammerU173 bets 960
    Pelopidas calls 960
    *** TURN *** [2d 4h As] [7d]
    HammerU173 has 15 seconds left to act
    HammerU173 bets 3,120
    Pelopidas raises to 16,308, and is all in
    HammerU173 calls 4,943, and is all in
    Pelopidas shows [2h 2s]
    HammerU173 shows [4d 6d]
    Uncalled bet of 8,245 returned to Pelopidas
    *** RIVER *** [2d 4h As 7d] [7c]
    Pelopidas shows a full house, Twos full of Sevens
    HammerU173 shows two pair, Sevens and Fours
    Pelopidas wins the pot (19,886) with a full house, Twos full of Sevens
    HammerU173 stands up
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 19,886 | Rake 0
    Board: [2d 4h As 7d 7c]
    Seat 2: VTpokerENG (big blind) folded before the Flop
    Seat 3: crapshot1 folded before the Flop
    Seat 4: HammerU173 showed [4d 6d] and lost with two pair, Sevens and Fours
    Seat 5: Pelopidas showed [2h 2s] and won (19,886) with a full house, Twos full of Sevens
    Seat 6: imnew53 folded before the Flop
    Seat 7: p7a77 folded before the Flop
    Seat 8: stofflan (button) folded before the Flop
    Seat 9: jwpoker4 (small blind) folded before the Flop
     
  2. HighPoint HighPoint is offline

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    Oct 3rd, 2007 (10/3/2007 1:46pm) in reply to HammerU

    You played that wrong in my opinion. You had a mid pair, you took a shot @ it on the flop he called, you took another shot at it on the turn and he pushed. I think you need to give players a little more respect and put them on hands when they put you all-in.
    Your stack to begin with was nothing special either, don't think that raising with hands like that is such a good idea.
  3. HammerU HammerU is offline

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    United States

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    Oct 3rd, 2007 (10/3/2007 2:00pm) in reply to HighPoint

    all the good players raise with hands like this when the antis kicked in. I used to instamuck them before I saw videos where everyone is doing this. You would be suprised how often you take down
    the blinds from early position because of the extra respect given to your raises.

    My problem is not that I played the hand it is however how I played it on the turn (which is absolutely AWFUL!!!). Up until the turn I feel all of my plays are fine.

    The problem with the turn is the 4th diamond that hit....if this didn't happen I would have check folded easily. That diamond lead me to believe that I had 14 outs...and taht is where the confusion began....after I bet strong and he moved in...I have 9 outs at least and up to 13 so I believe I priced myself in to call. The problem is that if I check call a small bet that seems weak.

    Basically the question is

    HOW SHOULD I HAVE PLAYED THE TURN!!!
     
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  4. HighPoint HighPoint is offline

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    Oct 3rd, 2007 (10/3/2007 2:04pm) in reply to HammerU

    Muck on the turn.
    Fold on the turn.
    Fold pre-flop.
    Fold.
    Fold.
    Fold.

    Play loose if you wan't but don't get carried away. Pick your spots.
  5. HammerU HammerU is offline

    Wethersfield, CT
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    Oct 3rd, 2007 (10/3/2007 2:49pm) in reply to HighPoint

    Muck the turn....Ok check the turn...then if he bets what?

    TURN HELP PLEASE
     
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  6. pauliewlnuts pauliewlnuts is offline

    Woodstock, GA
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    Oct 3rd, 2007 (10/3/2007 3:01pm) in reply to HammerU

    You still have 5k left if you fold the turn. You are putting your tournament life on hitting on diamond on the river.

    Fold turn IMO
  7. HammerU HammerU is offline

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    Oct 3rd, 2007 (10/3/2007 3:10pm) in reply to pauliewlnuts

    diamond or a 4...and maybe a 6...ob he had a set and it was just a diamond...but at the time I estimated between 11 and 14 outs.

    I think I ahve to check the turn for pot control....and only call a weak bet by him....if not fold.
    I think this is were I went wrong
     
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  8. HatesLosing HatesLosing is offline

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    Oct 3rd, 2007 (10/3/2007 3:17pm) in reply to HammerU

    I don't like this play and think you're "opening up" a little too much. I'd just fold preflop unless there were other circumstance such as me being a big stack and at a table that could be pushed around extremely easily.

    The biggest thing I dislike here is playing a hand like this from your position. If you were folded to in the CO and the blinds weren't super aggressive players that like a fight, then sure I can see you putting in a preflop raise with this. But from where you stand, I don't like that play unless you have a compelling reason to do it.

    Also, suppose you have a compelling reason to bring it in for a raise here. Most people that will fold to a raise of 640 will fold to a raise of 560, yet it keeps the pot a bit smaller and puts a few less chips at risk in case someone behind you re-raises strongly and you have to throw your hand away. You can sometimes raise like this with very strong hands from your position to counter giving away information, but typically I'd just muck this one preflop.

    Edit: When you're at a table in a larger buy-in MTT around this stage, you get more respect based on your position. I'm not so sure about that in a $5+$0.50, plus your goal in this hand from the start (if you're not going to fold) is to win a small pot without much resistance, so if I were to play the hand, I'd play it that way, i.e. keep the pot small and take a shot at it, otherwise throw the brakes on, unless you get lucky and end up with a monster of course.
  9. trouble trouble is offline

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    Oct 3rd, 2007 (10/3/2007 3:19pm) in reply to HammerU

    Hindsight is 20/20, but checking the turn gives you some hope...

    a) he may elect to check behind and you get a free draw at your flush.
    b) he may bet and you can get away with a ~5k stack @120/240.

    Either way, checking the turn is mandatory...

    After that, you probably have to fold to his bet...
  10. JWeb777 JWeb777 is offline

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    Oct 3rd, 2007 (10/3/2007 3:30pm) in reply to HammerU

    The good players do this, but are more likely to do so in position than 2nd to act. Also, you r not one of those good players, so maybe this style isn't for you yet. That being said, I dont like having to call off all my chips with one card to come with a 6 high flush draw. His line is very strong, so thinking that two pair is good is a mistake. I would be shocked to see him show up with only top pair here, unless it was top pair with a better spot, in which case you are in big trouble. I would probably go ahead and fold on the turn the way you played it, and not even got involved in the first place.
     
  11. Neek Neek is offline

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    Oct 3rd, 2007 (10/3/2007 3:38pm) in reply to HammerU

    The sooner you realize that you aren't BeL0WaB0Ve and don't yet have the skill to maneuver a hand like this post flop, the more profitable you will be...

    Don't feel bad...he's a special breed.
     
  12. dscroggs4 dscroggs4 is offline

    Hebron, KY
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    Oct 3rd, 2007 (10/3/2007 3:41pm) in reply to HammerU

    doesn't look like u had the stack to be raising this type of hand in early position....that's a move 40+ big blinds your stack couldn't handle a call and you felt once you got called so b/c of your stack you felt u had to fight for the pot which u did however my question is on the turn if you are egoing to call an all in? why not push all in put the pressure on him OBV this case he's calling but if he has AJ AQ it's tougher also takes him making a play at a weak turn bet but preflop mistake rasising here stack wasn't big enough to mix it up in early position
     
  13. FishOnTilt FishOnTilt is offline

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    Oct 3rd, 2007 (10/3/2007 4:26pm) in reply to dscroggs4

    welllp,if i could find a way to play a hand worse id tell ya.
     
  14. HammerU HammerU is offline

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    Oct 3rd, 2007 (10/3/2007 4:26pm) in reply to dscroggs4

    Edit: <span>When you're at a table in a larger buy-in MTT around this stage, you get more respect based on your position. I'm not so sure about that in a $5+$0.50

    </span>that is a VERY GOOD POINT!!! I aggree as calling with 22 there is an awful play in my opinion and wouldn't happen in largerr buy-in tournament. If it was a big buy in tournament I would have often taken the blinds here.

    And I might not be Belowabove or a great player...but it doesn't mean that I don't aspire to be one. Opening up your game gets people to play back at you alot more so when you do get your monster you are in for a big double up. Folding all day does not get this done.
     
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  15. HammerU HammerU is offline

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    Oct 3rd, 2007 (10/3/2007 4:27pm) in reply to FishOnTilt

    If I played the hand well I wouldn't have posted it here...so STFU.
     
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  16. HammerU HammerU is offline

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    Oct 3rd, 2007 (10/3/2007 4:29pm) in reply to Neek

    No...the sooner I learn to play like Belowabove the more profitable I will be.
     
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  17. Neek Neek is offline

    Boca Raton, FL
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    Oct 3rd, 2007 (10/3/2007 4:29pm) in reply to HammerU

    Opening up your game doesn't mean raising 46 in early position, hitting middle pair, catching a flush draw, and playing it like it's the nuts.
     
  18. Neek Neek is offline

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    Oct 3rd, 2007 (10/3/2007 4:30pm) in reply to HammerU

    GL with that. You know you can be a winning player with any of a number of styles, both conservative and aggressive. It takes a special talent to be able to play a style like Below can.

    Not that you can't try to incorporate certain things from anyone's game into your own. Just figure out what works for you. This clearly didn't. It's not just raising with a wide range of hands that makes his style work for him. It's his uncanny ability to play post-flop and stay away from trouble with the hands, while destroying the weak with them.
     
  19. HammerU HammerU is offline

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    Oct 3rd, 2007 (10/3/2007 4:40pm) in reply to Neek

    I aggree....That is why I posted this hand. I should have checked the turn but until then I still feel I played the hand fine.

    1) My preflop raise will take down the pot a good percentage of the time and
    2) My cont bet will take down the pot...almost everytime that he doesn't hit an ace or a set...which is very often.

    Those two together plus the fact that I am losening up my image for later on equal positive EV IMO.
     
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  20. HighPoint HighPoint is offline

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    Oct 3rd, 2007 (10/3/2007 4:41pm) in reply to HammerU

    You obviously don't want any advice either because your not taking it.

    He had nearly 18k in chips, he can afford to call n see a flop, n probably knew it was action or fold.
  21. HammerU HammerU is offline

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    Oct 3rd, 2007 (10/3/2007 4:43pm) in reply to HighPoint

    I obviously do want advice or I wouldn't have posted a hand that I look like a complete DONK on. I just don't aggree that my donkey play begins on preflop or on the flop. It is all on the turn IMO.
     
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  22. HammerU HammerU is offline

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    Oct 3rd, 2007 (10/3/2007 4:47pm) in reply to Neek

    Aggree...if I check fold the turn I stay away from trouble. I Fd that up miserably.
     
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  23. dscroggs4 dscroggs4 is offline

    Hebron, KY
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    Oct 6th, 2007 (10/6/2007 6:53pm) in reply to HammerU

    preflop raise is very questionable b/c of your stack size continuation bet more so....not a bad play if 30+ bb's but you were to short to get in this pot with that hand from that positoin
     
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