I don't think villain is great, but I've seen his name around before. He called my 4b preflop very quickly. The 3 bettor is an unknown/rando and insta folded.

Flop check seems standard, as played what's your plan here for turn/river?

Full Tilt Poker Game #15300149120: $1K Monday (108218952), Table 26 - 10/20 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:05:21 ET - 2009/10/12
Seat 1: zapatero (3,500)
Seat 2: SouthieShawn (4,960)
Seat 3: Dyng247 (4,970)
Seat 4: iloseflips2424 (4,970)
Seat 5: S3 TRX (6,750)
Seat 6: woosewoo (5,000)
Seat 7: The Lab Rat (4,820)
Seat 8: IITTII (5,000), is sitting out
Seat 9: Frank1The1Tank (5,030)
S3 TRX posts the small blind of 10
woosewoo posts the big blind of 20
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Frank1The1Tank [As Ac]
The Lab Rat folds
IITTII folds
Frank1The1Tank raises to 70
zapatero folds
SouthieShawn folds
Dyng247 raises to 240
iloseflips2424 folds
S3 TRX folds
woosewoo calls 220
Frank1The1Tank has 15 seconds left to act
Frank1The1Tank has requested TIME
Frank1The1Tank raises to 820
Dyng247 folds
woosewoo has 15 seconds left to act
woosewoo calls 580
*** FLOP *** [9s Qh 5d]
woosewoo checks
Frank1The1Tank has 15 seconds left to act
Frank1The1Tank checks
*** TURN *** [9s Qh 5d] [Jh]
woosewoo has 15 seconds left to act
woosewoo bets 1,050
Frank1The1Tank has 15 seconds left to act
Frank1The1Tank has requested TIME
???

checking back flop seems pretty bad to me.......

wats reasoning by checking behind on flop?

pretty easy bet on the flop imo, a check seems like the worst move.

 

Originally Posted by Frank1The1Tank

To those of you saying to bet flop, what is my range here and what is villains range? The only hand I can seem to get value from by betting flop is KK...

exactly. ur pretty much hoping he has KK here, or spazzed out with AK and stabbing at the pot?
QQ and JJ are obv in his range also. truly sick spot. i might call turn and fold to big river bet.
idk but how bad is it to turn this hand into a bluff. if u min-raise turn it looks super buff. it turns ur hand into a bluff, but were not sure that were good here anyways

 

Originally Posted by poisoneye1986

i woulda bet flop looking to get value from AQ KK. you said urself hes not tat great so you should get value there. but the turn i would just fold as it covers too much of his range.

He never has AQ in his range. I didn't say he was bad, I just said he doesn't seem great and could be a reg due to seeing him around a bit.

So basically if I bet flop, I can watch him fold out the bottom of his range, cooler me w/ QQ, or hope to god he has KK if he shoves?

he would have to be pretty bad for AQ to be in his range. his realistic range here assuming that he's good is AA or KK. if he's not good (which was stated) then his range could open to JJ, QQ, AK. betting the flop gets value from KK (assuming he's good). if he's bad enough to call pre with JJ or QQ (QQ obv got there) then he might be bad enough to call bet on flop (would bet smallish like half pot). if you decide to go with the hand on the turn, then flatting is best imo (calling turn with the intent of calling any river bet), jamming or raising on turn just turns AA into a bluff.

edit: after reading responses on 2p2, I think hero is usually just leveling himself here and thinking villain's range is what his own (frank's) range would be. still don't think i'd go as far as to say checking flop is atrocious, but meh w/e.

 

Originally Posted by shanetrain22

Also, I think a good way to make an argument for checking the flop rather than betting is just to say that when we check back, we allow ourselves way more options for getting value from worse

what worse are you gonna get value from by checking back thats not getting value from on the flop?

You've seen villain around from his $5,000 in buyins and $3,000 in losses over 36 MTTs?

When villain cold calls a 3bet from the SB then snap calls your large 4bet make sure they're not completely retarded.

Bet flop and get it in.

Even if your completely absurd given range is correct, and his range is QQ-AA, unless you think he is folding KK, its a trivial bet flop and get it in.

Still trying to figure out how checking the flop is "standard". Especially given the action pre.

 

Originally Posted by shanetrain22

He's got a bigger sample than that on OPR... though it's still tiny.

Are people really playing like this pre with AQ? And just check/getting it in with worse on the flop (besides KK)? God.

Does that sample include satellites?

And yes, in the poker community we call them "fish"

Even if the villain has QQ-AA or something that you guys claim a "good" player might have, if said "good" player is getting it in with KK then its the easiest bet/call flop of all time.

 

Originally Posted by SCTrojans

Does that sample include satellites?

And yes, in the poker community we call them "fish"

Even if the villain has QQ-AA or something that you guys claim a "good" player might have, if said "good" player is getting it in with KK then its the easiest bet/call flop of all time.

I mean I wouldn't get it in with KK in his spot because I wouldn't assume the villain would ever be calling with worse. I'm not sure why but I was pretty hesitant to just call him a fish based on his OPR (although I did check it as soon as the flop hit). I could have sworn I played with him on more than one occasion and didn't think he was that bad, but like I said, not great.

Bet flop. There is no way with his preflop line taken that he is a strong player. Even if his range is QQ/KK/AA you are getting value from this. If his range is wider, I find it unreasonable to assume that AQs cannot be there considering he IS a bad player if his range is any wider in the first place. And if he is bad with a wider range, betting the flop gets even more value obviously.

As played, every line seems fucking terrible at this point. Call/Call seems horrendous because he should have you crushed with the river bet. But at the same time, if this line is taken, then he called preflop in bad fashion and is similarly capable of spazzing with worse hands. Call/Fold seems horrendous because you just spewed off 1K by calling the turn and your hand is so face-up at this point that he could potentially shove his entire range on the river knowing that "you have to fold" although this seems unlikely if he is bad. Folding seems horrendous because you just let yourself get raped, exploited, and possibly folded the best hand.

AKA bet flop and avoid the situation.

 

Originally Posted by byoonz

AKA bet flop and avoid the situation.

This is wrong. To summarize all of what you said, you decided that I should bet the flop to avoid being put in a tough spot. I want to do whats optimal and most profitable, not what is the easiest. Doing something just to avoid a tough decision is just the easy way out without necessarily being the most optimal (although it can be in certain situations, just not this one).

i dont see how we can not bet the flop there, no matter what anyone says. were just gonna slow down cuz he may have QQ?

as played, i think folding is slightly less annoying then calling and evaluating river, but i mean the flop kinda kills it