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Turbo SNG leak?

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  1. TheDude12424 TheDude12424 is offline

    Gibbsboro, NJ
    United States

    Posts: 1,274
    Joined: Apr 07

    Aug 21st, 2009 (8/21/2009 3:48pm)

    before i write this whole post, i must admit that I've been running terribly in turbo sngs for a couple of months. and i keep just passing it off as variance, but maybe i need to plug a leak. I'm thinking that it's often harder and more stressful being a winning player than it is to be a losing player. What i mean is, much of the time, I am taking bad beats more than i'm giving bad beats.

    For the last few months, I've been losing a TON of 60/40s. Most of the time, i'm a 60 and i just cant seem to hit a flop when i'm calling a shove with AJs and they're shoving ATC. I'll chalk that up to variance along with losing a lot of hands where i have them crushed.

    My point is, I feel like I'm calling shoves much more than I'm shoving. If that makes sense, I'm making more borderline calls, than I am making borderlin shoves. Granted, i'd say 90% of the time, when i make a somewhat borderline call, i'm ahead. I feel like maybe my shoving range is too tight when we're late in sngs.

    I recently moved to 16s from 6.50s and I've been playing a lot with jlewis10748. This dude runs like a god against me, but i've noticed that he and a lot of other regulars shove extremely light.

    For my stats, since July, I'm ITM about 38% of the time, which is around 2% less than my typical ITM %. During January to June, i bubbled (4th or 5th) 21% of the time. in the last 2 months, i've bubbled 26% of the time, which is a HUGE difference IMO.

    Can I chalk this whole run up to variance/sample size or do I need to sharpen my skills on shoving ranges? I mean, I watch PXF sng vids pretty often and I dont see my play as being much different from beanmo.

    As of now, my plan is to go from 20 tabling, back to 6 tabling for a week or so.
  2. Popperhead Popperhead is offline

    Toronto
    Canada

    Posts: 13,098
    Joined: Jul 07

    Aug 21st, 2009 (8/21/2009 3:53pm) in reply to TheDude12424

    get a handle on your push/fold game and it should turn around for u it soundz like yur not shoving enoiugh and calling shoves far too otften
  3. Schlik20 Schlik20 is offline

    Madison, WI
    United States

    Posts: 4,964
    Joined: Feb 06

    Aug 21st, 2009 (8/21/2009 4:03pm) in reply to Popperhead

     
    Originally Posted by Popperhead View Post

    get a handle on your push/fold game and it should turn around for u it soundz like yur not shoving enoiugh and calling shoves far too otften

    this, gap concept is very huge in SNGs, and based on your sharks scope, these are 9 handed results and i see you have a 10% ROI at 15$ sngs, and there is nothing wrong at all, very average winning poker...

    maybe the results are skewed and Im not going deep enough into your results but it sounds like you just need to drop tables...
  4. Etrain99 Etrain99 is offline

    Canton, MA
    United States

    Posts: 3,280
    Joined: Jan 08

    Aug 21st, 2009 (8/21/2009 4:08pm) in reply to TheDude12424

    i would rank shoving into uncontested pots in position as your number 1 goal always .. then you want to worry about your calling ranges .. you will be presented with so many perfect spots to steal and half the time it will be with atc .. if you're shoving range and ability to pick the right spots isn't sharp you need to work on that first
  5. TheDude12424 TheDude12424 is offline

    Gibbsboro, NJ
    United States

    Posts: 1,274
    Joined: Apr 07

    Aug 21st, 2009 (8/21/2009 5:15pm) in reply to Etrain99

    good advice, thank you.
    Thread Starter
  6. Sh!p!tD0nk Sh!p!tD0nk is offline

    PW
    United States

    Posts: 375
    Joined: Jul 09

    Aug 21st, 2009 (8/21/2009 6:36pm) in reply to TheDude12424

    where would a player go to learn more about the push shove concept?
  7. Skitz0Frenik Skitz0Frenik is offline

    Zürich
    Switzerland

    Posts: 521
    Joined: Feb 08

    Aug 21st, 2009 (8/21/2009 9:05pm) in reply to TheDude12424

    Do the opposite extreme for a little by shoving MUCH wider and calling MUCH tighter (in reality you'll be playing closer to optimal ranges). You're running badly over an extended time but you should not be calling nearly as wide as you are.
  8. darkhawk-200 darkhawk-200 is offline

    United States

    Posts: 1,126
    Joined: Feb 09

    Aug 22nd, 2009 (8/22/2009 12:57pm) in reply to Skitz0Frenik

    I think calling light with 5+ is fine if you're ahead of their range. The goal is to make +ev calls to build a stack to abuse the bubble. On the bubble, your calling range needs to change significantly, especially if you are not the chip leader. Even if you are the chip leader, you shouldn't be calling light because you can abuse the bubble better by shoving. If you are 3rd or 2nd, you obviously shouldn't be calling light against the chip leader. The only time you should be calling light is if you're 4th and know the CL is abusing or if you're 2nd and 3rd and want to end the bubble because of your position relative to the other stacks.

    For example if the CL is to your left and the short stacks are to your left, you should be willing to call the short stacks lighter as you can't ship the big stack and the short stacks will steal from you until you lose your chip advantage.

    If you have a good position where the short stacks are to your left and the big stacks is to your right, you can afford to wait more
     1
  9. Skitz0Frenik Skitz0Frenik is offline

    Zürich
    Switzerland

    Posts: 521
    Joined: Feb 08

    Aug 22nd, 2009 (8/22/2009 2:23pm) in reply to darkhawk-200

     
    Originally Posted by darkhawk-200 View Post

    I think calling light with 5+ is fine if you're ahead of their range. The goal is to make +ev calls to build a stack to abuse the bubble. On the bubble, your calling range needs to change significantly, especially if you are not the chip leader. Even if you are the chip leader, you shouldn't be calling light because you can abuse the bubble better by shoving. If you are 3rd or 2nd, you obviously shouldn't be calling light against the chip leader. The only time you should be calling light is if you're 4th and know the CL is abusing or if you're 2nd and 3rd and want to end the bubble because of your position relative to the other stacks.

    For example if the CL is to your left and the short stacks are to your left, you should be willing to call the short stacks lighter as you can't ship the big stack and the short stacks will steal from you until you lose your chip advantage.

    If you have a good position where the short stacks are to your left and the big stacks is to your right, you can afford to wait more

    Overall a very solid and informed post. When it's 5+ handed, you can call much lighter than when on the bubble, but you still need to be beating their range by a wide enough margin to make it worth it. Calling off most of your chips when folding still leaves you FE, knowing you're not beating their shoving range is massively -EV. You may not like it or be too lazy to study ICM, but this is just common sense. I see lots of players (including regulars) make awful calls all the time, even on the bubble. In my mind it's the main reason they can't improve their low to mediocre ROI/profit. I won't name names but they are splashing equity all over the place, especially when they are mass-tabling.
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