As usual good work by Nat. Anyone questioning his credibility should give up playing poker due to their inability to read people. I agree with Nat's comment that it is in your best interests to refrain from playing on AP/UB for the time being.

I stopped playing on UB after the AP scandal broke and I learnt the following facts:

1) The AP scandal was perpetrated by one of its owners

2) The same guy is a part-owner of UB

3) The same guy continues to own stakes in AP/UB and likely gains a share of any profit each of these sites makes

I simply refuse to allow this crook to benefit from me, even if this means I myself lose the opportunity to win money on his sites. I suggest you all do the same. He can hide behind shell companies all he likes, but until i see proof that this guy no longer gains any ongoing benefit from UB/AP I will not play there.

"Okay, now that I've said what I can say, I also want to say this: If I were you, I probably wouldn't play at UB or AP right now either."

"However, for the time being, I completely understand anyone who wants to cash out from both sites and take a wait-and-see approach. It's exactly what I would do."

These two quotes stuck out in my mind and I can't help but wonder if this is some sort of warning! As if you know of some sort of pending 'D-day' if you will or the realistic probablity that UB/AP may not be around much longer. If you had money on either site would you cash out at this point in time Nat out of fear of not being able to get your money out later?

Taken from Absolute website:

�Absolute Poker and this web site is the sole, true and lawful property of �Tokwiro Enterprises Enrg�, whose operations are located on the south shore of the St. Lawrence River, nine (9) miles south of downtown Montreal, Quebec, Canada, located on lands known as the Mohawk (Kanien:kaha�ka) Territory of Kahnawake, belonging to the Mohawk Nation."

I think any person of reasonable intelligence would make the connection between "Tokwiro Enterprises" being located on Kahnawake territory and the fact that the KGC is a supposedly independent regulatory body that slapped that punitive $500,000 fine on AP. They would also believe that the fine was a total sham and an act tantamount to making a judge ordering a bank robber to pay restitution only to his brother because he was an account holder at the bank that was robbed.

Please comment on the ownership of AP/UB and the relationship of these companies to the Kahnawake Gaming Commission. I can't see how you shedding some light on any of this would jeopardize an internal investigation at UB into the superuser scandal.

Criminals are smart and someone took advantage of a personel breach in that site, but its sill the site's fault. They should get everyones money back who got ripped off that would help alot. Its a great site to play on and its unfortunate they let themselves get hacked. I would assume its not happening at this point, and they are running things real tight.

Why is that? And if so, why would Nat care?

So again, who owns these companies, and what is the nature of the relationship with the KGC, considering Tokwiro Enterprises is also apparently a Kahnawake-owned company?

it's hard for criminals to police themselves, even if they get caught and have to stop stealing, obv they will only pay back the minimum if any

btw, nat has been a great asset to online poker, and i have no idea who was in charge of the AP investigation and who is in charge of the UB one, but if someone like Nat was in charge of or at least played a key role in an open investigation in the UB shenanigans, then it might actually be credible and might actually be taken seriously as an attempt to come clean and pay retributions and make things right for ppl to trust UB/AP.

"Make no mistake about it -- there was blatant cheating on both AP and UB in 2007 and if the players never spoke up, nothing would have ever gotten refunded or fixed."

exactly, and its sickening, because with their mentality, they will only admit to the minimum wrongdoing, and pay back the minimum to those wronged instead of coming fully clean. And why wouldnt they if the same ppl that ran the site allowed and/or participated in cheating/stealing, are the same ppl in charge now.

LOL @ this being some kind of sensitive question. Kind of revealing about the foundation our precious world of online poker sits on.

From a business point of view it makes sense that they try as hard as possible to truely clean up shop. I trust Nat as much as I can trust anyone I have never met. I believe he is a good judge of character and has met the people that are cleaning this stuff up from an operational business view. There is no reason to doubt that they are cleaning up their operations.

On the other hand I also believe in the morale high ground that zpaceman is walking. The founder(s) that initiated and benefitted from the cheating are likely still shareholders and stand to benefit from any recovery. Do you want to contribute to this?

I would like to see him/them broke and in jail. If the current management team takes steps to get this/these guys charged with the crimes he/they committed that would be a good step towards proving that they have distanced themselves completely and doing what they can to make things right for those cheated.

Anything short of this reeks of a good business decision.

wowwwwww I wish i knew about this a while ago. I thought it was just absolute. Please tell me more info about the cheating. ty ch0p

Hi J, I would agree. I think it's in their best interest to inform the public that they're doing something about all this. However, neither Nat nor I have any say in how the handle their business.

I will say that like Nat, I believe in the current management at that company. I've seen it posted so many times over the years: "UB's new people are gonna make things better," and so I know how much it sounds like BS, and it would to me too if I didn't actually have a bit of an idea what's going on over there. Things are different now, though. It's being run like a real company now....thank goodness.

Anyway, if you don't trust them or otherwise have a problem with them, don't play there. I've always said the same thing--I didn't get why the same people would post about how they can't stand UB week after week. When I don't like a site, I just stop playing there--it's that simple. Obviously the superaccount situation is a lot more serious and has broader reach than any of that other stuff, and we all have a very good reason to care that it gets resolved.

Anyway, my mind is open to improvement right now--I want them to know that when they get the ship righted, they'll see positive results. I think the current management is moving in that direction--but it's a MASSIVE mess to clean up. They'll get there.