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unethical / illegal move or right play?

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  1. -Not P- -Not P- is offline

    Farmingdale, NY
    United States

    Posts: 99
    Joined: Mar 05

    Nov 6th, 2006 (11/6/2006 5:27pm)

    I thought it was the right play but others at the table were obviously pissed and thought it was a bad move. people I just talked to about it said it can be considered unethical and also leaves someone else alive. Someone else said they even think its against the rules (yeah, ok). It's not the first time this has happened. just curious what everyone else thinks? It's from a PS $100+9 sng

    pokerstars Game #6920026203: Tournament #35301466, $100+$9 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2006/11/06 - 18:06:08 (ET)
    Table '35301466 1' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
    Seat 2: BluesBassist (2275 in chips)
    Seat 4: DrivinDirty (4010 in chips)
    Seat 5: Milbarge (537 in chips)
    Seat 9: -Not P- (6678 in chips)
    Milbarge: posts small blind 75
    -Not P-: posts big blind 150
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to -Not P- [4h 9c]
    BluesBassist: folds
    DrivinDirty: folds
    Milbarge: calls 75
    -Not P-: checks
    *** FLOP *** [Jh Ad 4s]
    Milbarge: checks
    -Not P-: checks
    *** TURN *** [Jh Ad 4s] [5d]
    Milbarge: checks
    -Not P-: checks
    *** RIVER *** [Jh Ad 4s 5d] [Kd]
    Milbarge: checks
    -Not P-: folds
    Milbarge collected 300 from pot
    Milbarge: doesn't show hand
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 300 | Rake 0
    Board [Jh Ad 4s 5d Kd]
    Seat 2: BluesBassist folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 4: DrivinDirty (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 5: Milbarge (small blind) collected (300)
    Seat 9: -Not P- (big blind) folded on the River

    the next three orbits I just went all in against the medium stacks and they folded every time so my intentions obv worked but is it the right play?
    1
  2. timzc1 timzc1 is offline

    Vancouver
    Canada

    Posts: 2,262
    Joined: Jan 06

    Nov 6th, 2006 (11/6/2006 5:31pm) in reply to -Not P-

    ...if it is 'unethical' I cannot imagine what the agument for this conlcusiou would look like (mayeb I am wrong?).

    you want to keep the short stack alive, as it benefits you. these are your chips; you get to play them in ANY way you wish.

    NOW: if he was a buddy of yours and you were doing it to help him, then yes this is collusion (of a sort, I think).

    but, it does not look like that was the case.

    --tc
  3. Askesis_ Askesis_ is offline

    Tampa, FL
    United States

    Posts: 3,066
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    Nov 6th, 2006 (11/6/2006 5:33pm) in reply to -Not P-

    I do that play every chance I get.

    It's a smart plat. It's using the situation to your advantage. Keep the bubble alive so you can accumulate more chips. People that don't understand it will call is cheating or bad play, but I see it as a good situational play.
     
  4. Adam Adam is offline Emperor

    Atlanta, GA
    United States

    Posts: 12,631
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    Nov 6th, 2006 (11/6/2006 5:35pm) in reply to -Not P-

    As long as you're making this play strictly for your own benefit (that is, you have no interest, financial or otherwise, in how Milbarge finishes) then there is no argument that you shouldn't be able to do that.
     
  5. Leet8s Leet8s is offline usausausausausa

    New York City, NY
    United States

    Posts: 8,036
    Joined: Aug 06

    Nov 6th, 2006 (11/6/2006 5:36pm) in reply to Askesis_

    just say u didnt want to give information away with what u had and why u werent betting.
     
  6. threeven threeven is offline

    Tucson, AZ
    United States

    Posts: 18,612
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    Nov 6th, 2006 (11/6/2006 5:38pm) in reply to -Not P-

    Totally fine. If it were against the rules you wouldn't be allowed to do it. It certainly isn't unethical. The goal of this game is to make money, and your play is clearly to your advantage.
    2
  7. Askesis_ Askesis_ is offline

    Tampa, FL
    United States

    Posts: 3,066
    Joined: Jan 06

    Nov 6th, 2006 (11/6/2006 5:44pm) in reply to Leet8s

    Why lie?

    Just tell the truth: It is in your best financial interest to keep the short stack around.
     
  8. -Not P- -Not P- is offline

    Farmingdale, NY
    United States

    Posts: 99
    Joined: Mar 05

    Nov 6th, 2006 (11/6/2006 5:44pm) in reply to threeven

    ok thats what I thought. I dont know milbarge from a hole in the wall so I couldn't careless if he finished third or someone else. What one guy said was that it's ok to fold to the shortstacks raise or bet even if you have the nuts but you cannot just fold on a check.
    1
    Thread Starter
  9. threeven threeven is offline

    Tucson, AZ
    United States

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    Nov 6th, 2006 (11/6/2006 5:47pm) in reply to -Not P-

    Well, you obviously can
    2
  10. hvd hvd is offline

    Charlottetown
    Canada

    Posts: 177
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    Nov 6th, 2006 (11/6/2006 6:55pm) in reply to -Not P-

    Poeple will always whine if things do not play out the way they want.
    Ignore them and keep winning.

    HVD
  11. tdk tdk is offline

    San Francisco, CA
    United States

    Posts: 2,876
    Joined: Nov 05

    Nov 6th, 2006 (11/6/2006 7:00pm) in reply to -Not P-

    thats a perfectly well executed play. i read about this in scott fishmans book. i believe he called this play the "hand of god." in no form is that against the rules.
  12. Slag Slag is offline

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    Joined: Nov 06

    Nov 6th, 2006 (11/6/2006 7:35pm) in reply to tdk

    Sounds ok to me. Yould could do the same in a brick & mortar game by simply mucking. So it's not even an online "trick".
  13. bluesbassist bluesbassist is offline

    Arlington, VA
    United States

    Posts: 2
    Joined: Nov 06

    Nov 8th, 2006 (11/8/2006 9:29am) in reply to -Not P-

    I was one of the medium stacks in this tournament, and at the time I didn't think your play was unethical. I knew you were simply extending the bubble so you could continue to steal the blinds at will. Provided you are playing within the rules and not colluding with the short stack, I don't see anything unethical about it.

    I was, however, pissed that you were playing the big stack well, and there was nothing I could do about it. ;-)
  14. Tsupa Tsupa is offline

    Mustang, OK
    United States

    Posts: 4,666
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    Nov 8th, 2006 (11/8/2006 9:42am) in reply to -Not P-

    if you check and win the short stack is still alive. i'm not sure that this is a "good" play.
  15. TheMayor TheMayor is offline

    Boston, MA
    United States

    Posts: 4,699
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    Nov 8th, 2006 (11/8/2006 9:46am) in reply to -Not P-

    Uhhh...this play isn't unethical. But it's definitely supid. Why not just check behind in that spot and give yourself the opportunity to pick up those 300 chips with your pair of fours, instead of simply giving them to him? Both plays have the same effect, they keep him alive as the short stack and the bubble in tact for you to abuse...but in one case he has 375 chips and in one case he has 675.

    If he bets the river i'm definitely folding, keeping him alive. That is a well known strategy as the chip leader on the bubble and very effective. But folding when you can check is just silly, he can still survive a whole orbit with 375 chips.
  16. Jas0nKiiiiM Jas0nKiiiiM is offline

    Port Washington, NY
    United States

    Posts: 86
    Joined: Aug 06

    Nov 8th, 2006 (11/8/2006 10:01am) in reply to TheMayor

    i was going to write exactly what the mayor said above...i play a lot of $200 SNGs and do very well...and this isnt something i would do since i rather have the extra 300 in my stack and the bubble will still be alive...
  17. OneOutItHits OneOutItHits is offline

    Washington, DC
    United States

    Posts: 157
    Joined: May 06

    Nov 8th, 2006 (11/8/2006 10:53am) in reply to Jas0nKiiiiM

    what books out there discuss bubble play that are worth reading?
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