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USCPhildo-question on last night's FTP 24k

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  1. FlyinHawaiin FlyinHawaiin is offline

    Detroit, MI
    United States

    Posts: 288
    Joined: Oct 06

    Dec 11th, 2007 (12/11/2007 11:35am)

    Didnt save the hand history, not that I would know how to post it anyhow....

    Regarding your "coming over the top" on the all-in flush draw at the FT. I understand his min-reraise with weak top pair was very poor, giving you great odds to call.
    I assume you pushed for FE also, but wasnt he pot commited?
    And he said he put you on a flush draw, but why min-raise? If you dont hit he's not getting any more value on his hand.
    Why not push the top pair to protect and give you poor odds to chase IMO.

    Sorry bout the rambling hoping to get your opinion.

    PLease post HH if you can.....

    aloha
  2. USCphildo USCphildo is offline

    Las Vegas, NV
    United States

    Posts: 862
    Joined: Jul 07

    Dec 11th, 2007 (12/11/2007 1:08pm) in reply to FlyinHawaiin

    I dont have the HH but it went something like this...

    I'm 3 of 8 or 9 with an above average stack at 500k, there is monkey with 1M and a bunch around 200k or so.

    at 8000/16000 c/o (stack approx 350k) limps with A3s (bad play, there is too much to be gained by stealing blinds, and limping telegraphs weakness... raising premiums/limping marginal hands etc.)

    i complete in SB with Q8h (stack 500k) and BB checks.

    Ah 6h 2d flop. Both blinds check and villian bets 32k or so. i repop to 128k. he SUPERSNAPINSTAMINRAISES to 224k.

    At this point, there was 64k in the pot preflop, and with his 32k bet (and limping with an ace on the c/o is bad) i checkraised to just take the pot down right there. once he minraised, i was getting ridiculous pot odds, about 4.3 to 1 to call. I was pretty certain all he had was Ax at this point, meaning my flush draw was about a 2 to 1.

    His minraise was absolutely horrible. First of all, he did it super fast, without hesitation or thought. (I'm pretty sure he thought I was just bluffing and just minraised with what he thought was a dominating hand) I certainly did not think I had any fold equity at this point, but if i call on the flop. I'll pretty much have to call his turn shove for about 120k more. So, lets look at the odds I'm essentially getting to put all the chips in now....

    it is about 220k more to me with over 500k in the pot. in this particular hand, i was a 37% favorite to win, and I was essentially getting 2.3 to 1 or so (if you just assume that he's 100% calling, because his minraise was basically saying, "i'm going all-in this hand")

    I really dont think I played this hand that great, but I dont think I made a mistake either. My edge at a FT of a $24+2 is HUGE, therefore, when possible, I should try to keep pots smaller when I have speculative hands and look to chip up without showdowns or with big hands.

    My reraise in this case was mostly because I assumed he wouldnt be limping on the c/o with an ace, and would just fold to the checkraise. Although I was incorrect to assume that, I think I should have flatted the raise regardless.

    There are two possible scenarios: 1) He DOES have an ACE, and in which case, I can almost definately just call on the flop and/or turn, and bet a made flush for value, perhaps even an all-in bet on the river, and watch him snap call with his ZOMGIHAVEAPAIROFACES. Essentially, I think I still stood to win all his chips if i hit, but if i missed, I could save a lot of my stack.

    2) He DOESNT have an ACE, and in this case, if i flat the flop, he's probably checking behind on the turn, and if i miss on the river, I could probably just bet out my Q high and take it down.

    I wish I had the actually HH, but hope that works.
     1 
  3. FlyinHawaiin FlyinHawaiin is offline

    Detroit, MI
    United States

    Posts: 288
    Joined: Oct 06

    Dec 11th, 2007 (12/11/2007 2:03pm) in reply to USCphildo

    Thanks for your response. That guy haunted you the rest of the tournamant, berating you, and you handle yourself with class.

    aloha
    Thread Starter
  4. Nate Jizzle Nate Jizzle is offline

    Hugo, MN
    United States

    Posts: 470
    Joined: May 05

    Dec 11th, 2007 (12/11/2007 2:19pm) in reply to FlyinHawaiin

    In all honesty I dont like the raise here at all...I just dont see that your going to be getting any FE from a player I would expect to be in this hand. No ace is folding (esp with flush draw out there), and I just think with that stack you can find much better spots. You had very few chips in the pot to begin with. Why not let it go on flop?

    The only way you are making that huge raise other than a flush draw, would normally be some sort of 2 pair combo, I doubt you would with a baby set but maybe, and I also doubt that you would be raising that big with a hand like A9 ect...

    I personally think the best line (depending on how tricky this player is) is to bet out. Many times the limp on the C/O is hands like Q10, J10, KJ, ect which this player would obv fold, but there is potential he would bet them if checked to him...thus my reasoning...

    All in all the pot is just too small to get such a big pot brewing with a flush draw and two unders with hardley any chips committed.

    Nate
     
  5. USCphildo USCphildo is offline

    Las Vegas, NV
    United States

    Posts: 862
    Joined: Jul 07

    Dec 11th, 2007 (12/11/2007 3:06pm) in reply to Nate Jizzle

    First of all, I'm not a fan of the check-raise, for reasons stated in my previous post. I really dont like the lead out, mostly because it allows me to be priced out too easily, esp if Ax just shoves. You said, "why not let it go on flop?" Um, seriously? He bet 1/2 the pot after two players had checked to him. Excellent odds to call for a flush + ability to take pot away on later street if i feel he doesn't have an A = i'm never folding.

    You also said, that I might have a 2 pair combo, baby set, or A9. All of those reasons justify a check-raise.

    However, check-call was definately the best line here imo.
     1 
  6. Nate Jizzle Nate Jizzle is offline

    Hugo, MN
    United States

    Posts: 470
    Joined: May 05

    Dec 11th, 2007 (12/11/2007 5:36pm) in reply to USCphildo

    I agree check/call is not a bad move...screams flush draw and your out of position are the reasons I dont like it...also I question how many chips you will get if you hit the flush...but being your opponent seemed pretty bad check/call was probably best option...and he may check the turn even if you miss turn...who knows...

    In all honesty I might just dump this on the flop/preflop as weak as that sounds...just not really a hand to get involved with at that point...

    and i agree those justify a check raise...but there is almost no way im 4x(ish) a flop bet with a set there...

    Nate
     
  7. USCphildo USCphildo is offline

    Las Vegas, NV
    United States

    Posts: 862
    Joined: Jul 07

    Dec 11th, 2007 (12/11/2007 5:50pm) in reply to Nate Jizzle

    In your first response, you basically said a check-raise seems like a flush draw, and here, you said a check-call screams flush draw.

    what does out of position have to do with it tho? I was getting over 4 to 1 to call on the flop with a draw to the near nuts. i'm not proud of my position, but having the odds to call is what matters. I can't really get "outplayed". Either i hit my draw or I dont. Trust me, if i check/called 2 streets, hit the flush and bet it out, that donkey would have def still paid me off.

    folding Q8s preflop or on the flop is a huge leak.
     1 
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