I've never seen this move used by anyone besides myself, nor have I ever seen it talked about, but i have found that during the mid stages of the tourney, if you have a tight table image, you can make a 2X raise from UTG, after thinking about it for like 15 seconds, and the whole table acts as if you have AA.
This has worked for me time after time, and I'm wondering if anyone else ever uses this move.
also, if you get called...you just play out the hand the same way you would if you had AA, and i have gotten folds on this move for decent sized pots like 80% of the time.
Am i a genius or a donk for trying this?
This move is actually one of the things I took note of when watching Darrell77 (Gigabet) take down a rebuy tourney earlier this month. He rarely had to show but it seemed to me that he raised far more frequently than is normally recommended UTG. I thought it was interesting since it touches on 2 key concepts that most average to above average players know about. First, gap theory. It is harder to call a raise than make one. Second, only the strongest of hands deserve a raise from UTG. Most players will assume that it must be a monster.
Interesting concept for sure.
if you've got an extremely tight image and it's a reasonably high buy-in where you think your image is actually being taken into account before that donk in seat 8 goes all in with KJ of clubs then it's worth a shot maybe once every two hours.. in other words, once a tournament, maybe.
it probably depends on how far you're willing to go with the bluff. if you min raise UTG and a player like myself is on the button im going to re-raise you 6x regardless of what i have. will you re-raise me? smooth call and lead out on the flop? smooth call and check-call and lead on the turn?
having a plan for all the scenarios that will come up in a play like this can't hurt.
WOW!!! This is groundbreaking stuff!!! I wouldn't say genius, I'd say LEGENDARY...
J/k, this is pretty popular, and good players pick up on it very quickly. But you won't get away with it against those who don't understand position, or calling stations. You still have to know your opponents. It may work a few times, but don't overdo it.
the guy who said do it once or twice a tourny.. BINGO you nailed it
the way to build stacks with no cards is the ultimate MTT players goal.. if you can make the money without getting any good hands etc then you have the fundamentals to be an awsome player.
heres how it can be broken down:
1) this is just 1 play out of many.. sure you will only pick up maybe 3x the bb but if you add this into other things youve never done ebfore you now suddenly have 10-13 extra bb's coming in per hour. (on par to have a very nice stack)
anyhow of course it wont work out so nicely but this is one of the very common plays that MTT players use in combination with many others. (min raise from 7th seat is basically the same as this.. normall people go 4x to steal.. so your min raise is naturally fishy. )
anyhow what iam saying is that this + 2-3 other plays can drift you deep into a tourny when used properly and with GREAT discretion. Then of course you need to figure out what to do once you get a real hand.. if youve been playing "aa,kk,qq" like this.. then you need to changeit up to ruin that iage.. so when you get AA in 6th or 7th.. make it 4-5x bb.. now it looks like your actually trying to steal it right.. any ace on the bb hes prolly gonna push all-in.
I think you really need to take the table into account for this move. In my opinion good players know that most other good players don't min raise with AA. I don't really ever see myself doing that unless the blinds were super high. A lot of players would see your min raise as weak rather than sitting on a monster. I think its risky and like someone else said, you have to be playing with people who would actually see a minimum raise from utg as a reason to fold JK/QK rather than "getting to see the flop cheap"
Mantis I use this move all the time yes. I as well think the key is to pause for 10-15 seconds before the min raise. Once the blinds hit 200-400 in a stars tourny, the table is ripe. And i will use this move many times in a tournament, once everytime i move tables.
The problem with a min raise there is that you price a lot of hands into the pot. I'm not going to fold many normally playable hands to a min raise (middle pocket pairs, AQ or better). I'm certainly not going to fold the BB for one more bet with almost any two cards. Even if I put you on AA, I want to make the call and see the flop, given the fact that it costs me few chips, and I will likely win a huge pot if I hit my hand. If I do hit two pair or a set, I'm going to play weakly and let you bluff into a made hand. If I don't hit, it's easy to guess that I'm behind and release the hand. So I'm going to lose a few chips to you several times on that play, but every now and then I'm going to take a large amount of your chips. I don't think the risk of getting trapped into a big pot on a bluff is worth the reward of a UTG steal.
This is my most common move. It is shown tons of times in my videos on my site.
I call it understatement under the gun.
I show many times to use it and how to represent it correctly. YOu are not a donk, you are one of few that figured it out....
Yeah, I share this sentiment. The extra bet will not push me out of any hand I was planning on playing anyway. Certainly not in the beginning of the tournament. The blinds are going to have to be pretty high for me to take min raise seriously.
I don't like the min raise. If you have a garbage hand, you are just building a pot for someone else. If you have the monster hand, you are letting everyone else get in and outdraw you. Your A-A is no longer the favorite against 6 opponents. When you are beat it will be difficult to detect it and you are likely to lose a lot of chips. Furthermore, this is not even guarenteed to build a bigger pot than the standard 3x or 4x raise. You will get fewer callers but they will have to invest more chips.
It's just not for me.
technicalities aside, if you're playing at a good table, the earlier posistion you are in, the more the table generally respects the given raise. Which is why its often more profitable to steal blinds from the cut-off than the button, people just see it as suspicious. If you have enough chips and a tight image, a raise from early posistion with 78s or something can be very profitable, but generally it shouldn't be used often, especially if there are shortstacks in later posistion just waiting to see a small pocket or a7 to push on...
Sorry Ferrengi, but this , in every way, is an entirely wrong thought process and analysis. You are thinking about your cards way too much. There is a ton of detail in my vague response but I am not going to type it all on here.
Well, would you be willing to please send it to me in an email or on instant messenger?
I am always interested to learn more and find out about my bad plays or strategies. That's why I started posting on this site.
The move could very well be a good one. However, most of the time I see it happen, the person who is doing it is inexperienced and just making a silly move.
i agree with steve that making this play is to risky because good players in the big blind will call with almost anything for a min. raise just to see a flop and u dont kno if there is a monster in late position. This move does not have very good moneymaking odds. Say u try this move 3 times in a tourney and 2 of the times it works, u only steal the blinds. Good but not very profitable unless the blinds are huge. Now say the one other time u try it someone behind u has maybe KQ suited or AJ, A10 and decides to call and not raise. Now say they hit there hand on the flop and u continue to bet as though u have AA. They will likely have this beat by now and will play it weak and keep u betting. Also depending on there position u may be out of position during the hand making it harder to read what your opponent has. So u will most likely lose a huge part of ur stack on the hand and lose more than u won stealing the other 2 pots. So its not a profitable play in the long run. The only way i try this is if i trust my reads 100% and am able to slow down after the flop and realize the opponent is slow playing and fold. And since even the best players in the world dont always read right, i wouldnt use this play.
I dunno; I think it's a better play than that.
UTG when I steal I usually do my normal 3-4x raise, but I can see that the min raise may be a better play, or at least one worth integrating on occasion.
1st; against wary players it looks like you are holding a very strong hand.
2nd; the BB will probably call you because of pot odds, but in all likelihood he isn't going to hit his hand, is going to check to you, and you can then take the pot. If someone else is in the pot as well then it gets a bit dicey, but I'm imagining this play is most effective when things start tightening up in the later stages of a tournament.
3rd; you wont lose a huge part of your stack; you'll normally lose much less than you would with a bigger raise. For instance assume the BB calls you, and bets out on the flop.. now you (normally) muck. If instead he checks, you put in a 1/2 pot continuation (which is still only 2x bb, the amount you otherwise would have already invested in the pot) and now he folds. You got him to fold what may have looked like a promising hand to him before the flop which he could have called your 3-4x bet with. In that circumstance if he checked to you on the flop you need to put in another 3-4x bet as a continuation.
with the min raise pre:
if he calls; you're risking 4x bb (2x pre and 2x post) to win 2.5x BB
if he folds; you risked 2x bb to win 1.5x BB
with a 4x pre raise
if he calls; you're risking 8x bb (4x pre and 4x post) to win 2.5x BB
if he folds; you risked 4x bb to win 1.5x bb.
I think that the play is a good one because it makes everyone say that's kind of unusual. Does he have a monster and lookin for a reraise or is he trying to steal the pot? The best thing about the play is that if it works, you win a pot w/ a very small investment where if you get called you can bet out on the flop regardless of what comes and maybe win it there. Also, if your getting played back at its pretty easy to get away from and the pot isn't very big anyways.
My advice would be to make sure you are doing it w/ big hands also. If you always raise more w/ a bigger hand people are going to catch on, if you make the min. raise w/ a monster and get raised, your gold.