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UTG Steal Do it or Not?

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  1. Remen Remen is offline

    Las Vegas, NV
    United States

    Posts: 47
    Joined: Aug 06

    Dec 14th, 2006 (12/14/2006 10:17am)

    Ok So I've been debating this "move" with a friend. I use the UTG Steal in every MTT I play. It has been succesful so far for me by a wide margin. I rarely get called and when I do I cont bet and win.

    There are problems with this move in that you are OOP and have to get thru the entire table. I do this 9 handed when the blinds are big enough to mean something 1 to 2k and up. So a call is usually a good portion of someones stack.

    My questions are as follows:

    1. Have you tried this move and found it succesful or had bad results??

    2. I play mainly $5 to 10 MTT's. The debate I have with my friend is they claim at this level you'll get called alot and being OOP can cause a problem. If you do use the UTG steal how succesful is it? What level do you play?

    3. Is this a plus EV move in your opinion??

    4. If you do try this what kind of hands do you try it with? Suited Conn? Pr's? ? Nothing?

    I would like any input positive or negative I can get. Like I told my friend I'll continue using it regardless, till I get burned like a child playing with fire LOL. I would like others honest opinions. I can understand the perception of being OOP etc but try it when the blinds are big and let me know your results.

    Remen
  2. xcalibur1120 xcalibur1120 is offline

    Helena, AL
    United States

    Posts: 313
    Joined: Dec 05

    Dec 14th, 2006 (12/14/2006 2:08pm) in reply to Remen

    Well I aint belowabove but he doesn't play $5 and $10 MTTs either so his advice may not be relavent (no disrespect meant...I'll explain.)

    THe whole strategy behind the UTG steal is the "Gap Concept" put forward by Sklansnksy. Basicly, it means that the earlier a player raises (UTG or UTG+1) they presumably have a large hand since that raiser knows s/he will have to play the rest of the hand OOP. As a result, the players that call the raise must have a larger than normal hand. So in a "poker Utopia world" an UTG raise is probably only being called by AA-QQ and AKs. This is why it is so succesful since most good players are passing hands like AQ and 66. (And I'm talking about mid to late in a tourney obv not early on) Most players at belowabove's level understand this.

    However, the players you and I play with at the $5 and $10 don't know this concept or don't care so IMO, the UTG steal loses some of its probablity to be succesful.

    (1) I have not tried this per se. I have however found that raising weak hands like AJ and 88 from UTG+1 is probaby a -EV move...staying true to the gap concept; limping with them is horrible (except early in an MTT maybe). (And by raising, I mean usually 4X BB even when my standed rz is 3X).
    (2) I would side with your friend on this one but there are many ways to play this game. If your comfy playing out of position then go for it. I personally hate being out of postion.
    (3) Prob at higher buyins where people know about the gap concept but I'd honestly say -EV at our $5/$10 buyins.
    (4) Can't say cuz I don't use it much or if I am, I don'r realise it. I think with soooted connectors like 67, I think you have to be ready to play for your whole tourney if you get a flop you like. EX 7KA or 45J. I think someone said it best that if you AREN'T ready to play for you whole tourney with 67 on those flops then exactly what kinda flop were you hoping for? 77K kinda flops are rare so hoping for a flop like this is HUGE -EV so have to be ready to push with pair+flush draws or pair+Open end Str draw (see phatcats article on this...he explains it really well).

    Hope this helps

    --Adam
  3. Remen Remen is offline

    Las Vegas, NV
    United States

    Posts: 47
    Joined: Aug 06

    Dec 14th, 2006 (12/14/2006 9:02pm) in reply to xcalibur1120

    Thanks for the reply Adam. I understand the perception at the 5 and 10 dollar tables UTG raise doesn't get as much respect. I also understand Below's level is different. I wanted his input because I remember him mentioning it in a post, I can't even remember if he was in favor of it etc.

    If I was asked this question about whether $10 players respect a UTG raise I'd have said ,not as much, but my results are showing different. If I think back to before PXF etc I didn't understand as much about raising hands UTG etc but I respected a tight players UTG raise more the deeper we got. It could be I've been lucky and at the right tables etc. I'm still just testing it, right now the evidence is showing it as plus EV.

    I'm not comfy playing out of position but so far I just rarely get called say 1-2 times in 20 tries. The 1-2 times I cont bet and win.
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