The best replies in the thread titled "I am sick of seeing all of the 'cash game players' knock tourney players" have been from ahh_snap and YourTimeIsUp, up until this post. I don't think a lot of tourney players actually realize how much harder cash games are to beat than tournaments. Until someone has truly put up big winning numbers in cash games over a very large sample size, they don't know what it takes to be successful in cash game poker. They can speculate, as many try to do, but they are generally wrong.

The reason poker is so profitable for many is because of the greatest and worst thing in this world, ignorance. Now keep in mind, everyone in the world is ignorant, anyone who denies this fact is probably more ignorant. I like to attribute the condescending batter cash game players give towards tourney players as their hate of their ignorance. Cash game players are in fact that, less ignorant about the game of poker. What ahh_snap said was completely right in that in order to be successful at cash games over a long period, you CAN NOT have holes in your games. Many successful tournament players have huge fundamental leaks in their games, ie. implied odds, stack control, bet sizing, pot control. The reason for this is because tournament players have to do a lot less thinking in their thought processes during a hand. For tournament players, you mainly deal with hand ranges preflop and maybe on the flop. Late in a normal structured online tourney, all hand ranges are basically dealt with preflop. When a hand range can be explained by "any 2," or "any pair, broadway cards," etc, it is evident to see how easy tournaments are perceived. The early stages are not necessarily like this, but you don't need much skill to make it to the level of a tournament where you can be stupid aggressive and kind of make up for all the leaks in your game.

Cash games are a different breed. In cash games, if you have any one major leak in your game, you are going to be demolished. Cash games also require a lot more thinking due to constantly changing hand ranges. Many pots in cash games go past preflop, flop and turn action. Throughout all these streets there are so many things to consider that change hand ranges and many different factors I don't even feel like diving into ATM.

What YourTimeIsUp said is partially correct, but his argument needs to be based around ignorance instead of jealousy. Sure there are some cash game players who feel hatred towards tourney players because of the fame they get but most don't. The main reason many cash game players rag on tourney players is because we feel you are all ignorant about the game of poker, and going back to basic human instinct, we feel the need to put you down because we are at the top of the poker chain, skill-wise (even though this is relatively speaking because IMO, no one actually can fully understand this game and we are all ignorant. Cash game players are the least ignorant). I want to try to compare this in a way that many tourney players will understand.

As you look back into your poker playing careers, everyone primarily has a similar history. We all generally think we are a lot better than we actually are. This blinded ignorance is what makes poker so profitable. It's our bread and butter. As we get better and better, we semi-maintain this ignorance that we are still good, but we slowly realize that we indeed were not that good. It's a never ending cycle that will always keep poker a profitable game. The feeling cash game players have towards "tourney donks" is similar to the feeling a lot of solid tourney players have towards what they see on TV. They watch the WSOP with their mom, dad, friends, roommate, spouse, etc. who knows nothing about poker. They are both watching and up comes a commercial featuring Joe Hachem. Ice water in his veins, "I'm All in," "Got what it takes?" As the other person goes, wow he's amazing, he can go all in without flinching, you are probably thinking, "wow [insert name] is pretty dumb and doesn't realize what poker is all about." BOOM. This is the feeling cash game players have towards tourney players. This feeling of lesser-ignorance that makes us feel better about ourselves.

So in the end, if you want the most probable accurate answer, cash game players scoff at tourney players because we feel we know a lot more about the game than you, which we do, but we do it to make ourselves feel better. In a way we are insecure. Our lesser-ignorance about the game of poker puts us on a pedestal and as human beings, we feel the need to point this out. So in conclusion, we all probably suck at poker, cash game players just suck less, and some of us feel the need to point this out.

AK

i posted this in the other thread, but ill crosspost it here as well:

It's because of a combination of a lot of things.

I do have a great respect for the top tournament players because up until very recently I was a big loser in online mtts. I cant pinpoint exactly what my problem was, but it was almost certainly a number of stupid things that I could have easily corrected.

Now, I feel very comfortable playing mtts. And to be honest, it is way easier than cash. The fields are extremely soft compared to cash games. I would compare the toughest tournaments, like the 100r, 200r and the ftp 1k to say 2/4 or 3/6 nl in terms of skill level. sure the top top tourney players are excellent, but these fields still have tons of dead money in them, and the softer fields like the 150, or small buyins are just ridiculously bad overall.

Also, when we see tournament players enter cash games, we usually lick our chops because they inevitably do something retarded (sort of like what I used to do when I played tournaments) but it is a much more tangible mistake (and for more money). When tourney players donked off a stack with AJo preflop to you, you make money that you instantly have from it. When I donked off in a tourney with AQ vs an utg raise, the chips arent money yet, in fact, it's often nowhere near the money so its hard to make as much value off of that.

Further, the skill sets are extremely different. Tournament players are not adept at making laydowns, have relatively little experience playing postflop with nontrivial stacksizes, and have their greatest strength in recognizing preflop tendencies allowing an edge to be created in knowing when to reshove on people, when to fold, when to call all in a little light, etc. These really arent the hardest things in the world to master. Obviously there are subtleties which are difficult, but it is not comparable in difficulty to advanced postflop play in cash based on metagame factors and stacksizes.

usually when cash game players play a tournament they do one of two things: they either totally nit it up and then just start shoving with <10bb, or they play insanely lagtard, try to build a big stack and then pressure opponents preflop with lots of 3betting. however, they dont adjust well to the stacksizes of a lot of players at the table and end up donking it all off in some embarassing way, like 3betting another bigstack with 3 18bb stacks behind them who eventually pick up a good hand and reshove, and calling an all in with some total trash hand and losing their edge, and they also dont know some of the subtleties of playing with short money.

I think yourtimeisup really hit the nail on the head in his post. Cash game players get no glory, make more money, and are basically better poker players. IMO the 3 best online mtt players are actionjeff, smokey and colson10. I am not saying this because they play cash games very well, but it is because I really believe they are by far the best. I do think as a result of playing cash games they play much better in mtts. Being able to combine your cash game skillset with a tournament skill set is extremely dangerous in a tournament, whereas the other way around is really not so profitable. Rarely do tournament players ever have an edge in a cash game because they play tournaments. sure there are certain scenarios where say there are a lot of 15-30bb stacks present (like at 25/50 nl) and some other things but the edge created there happens way less frequently and is much smaller than the edge having a good postflop ability and smart deepstacked play have in a tournament.

anyone really care about this stupid discussion?
come on, who really cares if you put down a "tourny" player if you're a "cash" player, please read that out loud and tell me how stupid that sounds.
play your game, make money, be happy...if you have discussions like this in person you have some serious social issues imo

lol ^^^ I like.

traheho pwns

The skill sets involved in cash games and MTTs are just so very different but the big thing is many cash game players can have success in MTTs but this does not hold true for strictly MTT players who enter cash games - there are plenty of exceptions but generally it holds true. I AGREE FULLY that winning cash game players at high levels cannot have holes in their games. A major leak most have is controlling the pot size. If you cannot do this in cash games you will go broke oh so quickly. Also a major difference in skill sets is that of preflop and postflop play. In cash games you are RARELY getting it in all in preflop so you MUST know how to play postflop poker and that is one of the biggest leaks of some tourney players.

I play SnG's because they make me money. I don't give a fuck if cash game players are better at deep stack poker. I'm not good at deepstacked poker. I don't really care. You guys make more money than me, just shut the fuck up and keep doing it.

Cash game players who talk about how much better they are are the same thing as that annoying guy at the bar who talks about how much money he makes at his job as a lawyer. Yeah, your car is nicer than mine, but you're also laughable to listen to and be around.

The players that I admire the most are GP and Sheets from each discipline. They just play well, make their money, and don't feel the need to thump their chest on any internet forums.

To conclude, no one who matters cares what you're good at. If you're an asshole, you'll always suck at life. Congrats on the money cash game players.

it does matter.

this post is a reality check for most.

Maits they don't need to thump their chests because they have websites that are saying they are so good people should pay to learn from them.

You can't deny that would be an ego boost.

i cant comment with much detail, but to back you up...from what ive seen you seem to be a decent winner at the 2/4 to 5/10 cash game level and i dont know anything about your tourney play, but just setting record straight for timeisup.

No my analogy is not terrible martine, and I never said that I thought tourney players were better. I think that cash game players are by far better hand readers, and they obviously make tons more cash.

That said, if they put down tourney players, it's akin to bragging about your job, which in the real world will get you laughed at. I'm pretty sure you're not like that, because I've never heard you post anything but decent stuff, and you seem level headed, but you can't deny that the posts putting down tourney players are nothing more than ridiculous ego boosts.

If I were to tell my friends who are not as "smart" (as defined by standardized testing) and who don't make as much money as me at their 9 to 5 jobs as me that they were terrible, that they're not as smart, that they are life donkeys, etc..., it wouldn't go over very well, and I'd seem like a complete jackass.

Tell me how this is different.

its important because of the ignorance, like AK87 stated. you cant be igonrant and win long term in cash games; you can be ignorant and win long term in mtt's.

YTIU's analogy of you working hard for a great career and your friend winning the lottery three times was basically perfect.

maybe I have less of an ego than some, but i know cash game players are better overall, and i know that when i step into a cash game im going to be a long time loser bc i dont have the skillsets to win, yet. If i wanted to be good at cash, I would learn and talk with other posters about it. but seriously, ya'll take this internet poker community as a whole way too seriously. I'm tryin to make as much money from tournaments as i can, and thats it. I have a life outside this shit, poker is just making my life a lot easier, if u think i'm less of a player/person for playing tournaments instead of cash, thats on you, im happy where im at. Tournaments make me more money than any job could, and thats the only thing i care about.

mman is the man.

i think the this thread was made for all the people who have a false sense of their skills, not people who are in touch with reality.

mman's post is excellent.