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What to do in these situations, bottom two pair against an ATC all in player

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  1. 10philim 10philim is offline

    United States

    Posts: 52
    Joined: Oct 06

    Jan 15th, 2007 (1/15/2007 3:40pm)

    This tourney had was reaching the first break, and I had been moved here. JOHNY, cardkaren, and nunzio were huge fish. They would reraise all in to a 3x blind raise, even when karen is the CL with 10000 chips. They raised every pot, and I, most likely along with everyone at the table, was waiting for a hand to snap them off with. I had been raising only with good cards at this table, but my style is to raise in position with more mediocre holdings to try to steal, and outplay them after the flop if they called. JOHNY had sat out about two hands ago, and nunzio was tightening up, so I thought it was a good time to try and steal in position. She raised me to 250 from 150, I had to call. The flop was exactly what I wanted. I couldn't give her a range, I thought she'd raise me with any two. If she had K 6 I'd cry a little. :) The other guy I put on AK. I was suprised to see KQ with this kind of action before him, but I guess this is a $4.
    pokerstars Game #7953928635: Tournament #40641988, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2007/01/15 - 16:23:40 (ET)
    Table '40641988 1' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
    Seat 1: cardkaren (12330 in chips)
    Seat 3: dnvergrl (3365 in chips)
    Seat 4: AA-TWESTER (1040 in chips)
    Seat 5: 10philim (5000 in chips)
    Seat 6: nunzio79 (1035 in chips)
    Seat 7: hagayhl (2830 in chips)
    Seat 8: BigWhiteBear (3020 in chips)
    Seat 9: JOHNYRUNEM (7790 in chips) is sitting out
    hagayhl: posts small blind 25
    BigWhiteBear: posts big blind 50
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to 10philim [4h 6h]
    JOHNYRUNEM: folds
    cardkaren: calls 50
    dnvergrl: calls 50
    AA-TWESTER: folds
    10philim: raises 100 to 150
    nunzio79: folds
    hagayhl: calls 125
    BigWhiteBear: folds
    cardkaren: raises 100 to 250
    dnvergrl: folds
    10philim: calls 100
    hagayhl: calls 100
    *** FLOP *** [4c Kh 6s]
    Paycheck4me is connected
    hagayhl: checks
    cardkaren: bets 1050
    10philim: raises 2250 to 3300
    hagayhl: calls 2580 and is all-in
    cardkaren: calls 2250
    *** TURN *** [4c Kh 6s] [5c]
    cardkaren: bets 8780 and is all-in
    10philim: calls 1450 and is all-in
    *** RIVER *** [4c Kh 6s 5c] [7h]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    cardkaren: shows [6c 8c] (a straight, Four to Eight)
    10philim: shows [4h 6h] (two pair, Sixes and Fours)
    cardkaren collected 4340 from side pot
    hagayhl: shows [Qd Kc] (a pair of Kings)
    cardkaren collected 8590 from main pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 12930 Main pot 8590. Side pot 4340. | Rake 0
    Board [4c Kh 6s 5c 7h]
    Seat 1: cardkaren showed [6c 8c] and won (12930) with a straight, Four to Eight
    Seat 3: dnvergrl folded before Flop
    Seat 4: AA-TWESTER folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 5: 10philim showed [4h 6h] and lost with two pair, Sixes and Fours
    Seat 6: nunzio79 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 7: hagayhl (small blind) showed [Qd Kc] and lost with a pair of Kings
    Seat 8: BigWhiteBear (big blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 9: JOHNYRUNEM folded before Flop (didn't bet)

    The other guy was caught in the crossfire. He had no cards, and was starting to get frustrated. He was looking for a chance to get all in. I was 100% sure I had the best hand at the flop and was hoping karen would put me all in.
    Is this bad play or did I just get lucky to have the best hand and unlucky to lose in the end?
    Any thoughts are appreciated.

    P.S. -> Pokerstoved the hand based on the range, and I had 66% equity here.
  2. trsba trsba is offline

    Brisbane
    Australia

    Posts: 672
    Joined: Mar 06

    Jan 15th, 2007 (1/15/2007 11:45pm) in reply to 10philim

    Two limpers and u raise with 4d6d to 150 r u serious??? And u wonder why u lost the hand.. Ok u hit your four percenter flop, u got ur money on v good on the flop 69% v kq and the guy with Karen with runner runner str8 hit lightning. I think u need to review startign hand requirements
  3. 10philim 10philim is offline

    United States

    Posts: 52
    Joined: Oct 06

    Jan 16th, 2007 (1/16/2007 10:18am) in reply to trsba

    Why would I? I am in position, and not everyone plays tight. Im not limping, and in position a suited one-gapper is very playable. Limping with hands like these is very weak, but I am raising. If you think that weak-tight (The "right" way) is the only way to play, you might be in for a suprise. People like Erick Lindgren have made their name as a player who, with position, can play any two cards. If I think they're weak I'll play a mediocre hand in position. Especially when I have the implied odds of when I hit a big hand as I did. I knew if I hit I could karen all in, and it seems to me to be an alright strategy.

    What do you mean by "starting hand requirements"? What reason is there for me to fold 46s in a late position, unraised pot with some dead money in it? (Certainly I would never call but I think a raise is a viable strategy)
    Thread Starter
  4. MetalGod MetalGod is offline

    Thomaston, CT
    United States

    Posts: 1,978
    Joined: Aug 05

    Jan 16th, 2007 (1/16/2007 10:33am) in reply to 10philim

    I think preflop you should have bumped this up a little more actually to try and get atleast one of those limpers out. If you're looking to outplay someone, you're much better off trying to get a little isolation too. Now...I'm a little baffled by this...

    cardkaren: calls 50
    cardkaren: raises 100 to 250

    Now that is quite a donkey play if I ever did see one, especially with the holdings they had. Next, just push all in on the flop is as much as you can do. That donk limp-minreraised with 86 so they're probably not capable of folding a hand anyway. I'd have to guess that the reason for that unbelievably ridiculous play is $4.00+$0.40.

    To those who said something about starting hand requirements, this is based on his read on his opponents. That is more important than the cards and then it does help that he hit the flop well. He's in great shape to rake in a big pot, but the infamous suckout came up. You're not always going to pick up premium hands to play either...there's going to be times where you'll have to try and force a little action. Position helps and otherwise, it helps if you can play the hand against a small number of opponents (heads up, 2 opponents).

    In these things (assuming this is a 4.40 180 person), it's not like most people are going to pay attention to their opponents anyway, so you can probably get away with the "weak-tight" or "tight-aggressive" styles and you'll still get plenty of action because not many people are trying to put you on a hand. They're just thinking about their own cards obviously and they seem to believe every bet someone else makes is a bluff. Personally, I like this better as you're not just sitting back and waiting for a monster.
  5. Cortz Cortz is offline

    Youngtown, AZ
    United States

    Posts: 6,736
    Joined: Dec 05

    Jan 16th, 2007 (1/16/2007 10:35am) in reply to 10philim

    i dont mind your raise preflop...if u hit something which u did btw...nobody will be able to put u on anything on the board. especially since u were 1st raiser...

    What completely baffles me is that the other guy mini re raised with 68 sooted
  6. l[dip]l l[dip]l is offline

    Amersfoort
    Netherlands

    Posts: 526
    Joined: Oct 06

    Jan 16th, 2007 (1/16/2007 2:42pm) in reply to 10philim

    I like the raise pre flop but for a different reason to the one stated in your orrigional post;

    " I thought it was a good time to try and steal in position"

    With two limpers in front of you a raise to 3xbb is not going to scare any one off in a $4.40 tournament. However I would raise pre flop with this hand only to disguise it - although this may not be nessasary in a $4 as many people may not think about what cards you hold so little effort must be made to conseal hands, so you are baisicaly charging yourself to see a flop. I would never go into a hand with those kind of cards and that kind of raise with the intention to win the hand unless i hit a nice flop as you in your head you may feel like 'i have to steal this pot... this is why i raised...' and then drop 1.5k trying to work out why he woudnt fold K10.

    The flop is the one you wanted and you got your money in good so dont sweat... you did good cardkaren is a uber fish and got lucky but she obv made a -EV play so in the long run you come out on top.

    However i feel that at this level the preflop raise is a -EV play as you can get as much action by limping and alot (95%) of the time you will have to fold to a flop bet or just check fold (unless you isolate - which you wont with a small PF raise like the one you made). So i feel at this level limping will save you more chips and allow your play to become more profitable - which is what we all want.
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