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What is the worse play — 22 shove or A9 calling the 22 shove?

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  1. dynamite d dynamite d is offline

    Clarksburg, WV
    United States

    Posts: 434
    Joined: Mar 06

    Feb 6th, 2008 (2/6/2008 8:35pm)

    I've been arguing with some donkeys in the Bad Beat thread about this hand. All they see is the guy calling off his stack with A9 off when the actual thing they should be looking is the guy overshoving with 22.

    I keep telling them it was a bad call but the right call at that intance.

    Let's have some comments from some better players on this hand — What play is worse 22 shoving or A9 off calling?

    I'm going with 22 shoving.

    Thank you for all who answers.

    pokerstars Game #15031464548: Tournament #75901412, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2008/02/03 - 12:36:53 (ET)
    Table '75901412 205' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
    Seat 2: MpireMaker (2692 in chips)
    Seat 3: agata10 (4205 in chips)
    Seat 4: vmnielsen (1350 in chips) is sitting out
    Seat 5: sysephus (2720 in chips)
    Seat 6: POKERMANBIRD (4673 in chips)
    Seat 7: ozzyrocks111 (1255 in chips)
    Seat 8: pasopderiver (2425 in chips)
    Seat 9: victor200188 (5105 in chips)
    agata10: posts small blind 75
    vmnielsen: posts big blind 150
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to POKERMANBIRD [9s Ac]
    sysephus: folds
    benno42 is connected
    POKERMANBIRD: raises 300 to 450
    ozzyrocks111: folds
    pasopderiver: folds
    victor200188: folds
    MpireMaker: folds
    agata10: raises 3755 to 4205 and is all-in
    vmnielsen: folds
    POKERMANBIRD: calls 3755
    *** FLOP *** [Ah 6d 2h]
    POKERMANBIRD said, "lol"
    *** TURN *** [Ah 6d 2h] [Qh]
    *** RIVER *** [Ah 6d 2h Qh] [3h]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    agata10: shows [2c 2d] (three of a kind, Deuces)
    POKERMANBIRD: shows [9s Ac] (a pair of Aces)
    agata10 collected 8560 from pot
    POKERMANBIRD said, "unreal"
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 8560 | Rake 0
    Board [Ah 6d 2h Qh 3h]
    Seat 2: MpireMaker (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 3: agata10 (small blind) showed [2c 2d] and won (8560) with three of a kind, Deuces
    Seat 4: vmnielsen (big blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 5: sysephus folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 6: POKERMANBIRD showed [9s Ac] and lost with a pair of Aces
    Seat 7: ozzyrocks111 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 8: pasopderiver folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 9: victor200188 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    beat on stars.
  2. rivverkiller rivverkiller is offline

    White Rock
    Canada

    Posts: 6,352
    Joined: Feb 06

    Feb 6th, 2008 (2/6/2008 10:47pm) in reply to dynamite d

    Both plays are pretty bad however I'd rather be shoving with 22 then calling off with A9. However playing either hand like that with more then 20xbb's is pretty bad.
     
  3. bef99hwk bef99hwk is offline

    Manhattan, KS
    United States

    Posts: 7,332
    Joined: Apr 07

    Feb 6th, 2008 (2/6/2008 10:54pm) in reply to rivverkiller

    what he said....the 22 was bad but it's a lot better to be on the shoving end then the one calling the shove...I see so many calls with Ax below AT it's atrocious.
  4. MYBLUEDOG MYBLUEDOG is offline

    Greenville, MS
    United States

    Posts: 1,999
    Joined: May 07

    Feb 6th, 2008 (2/6/2008 11:10pm) in reply to dynamite d

    Pushing with [22] is pretty bad, but he has to think he has some fold equity. His stack is only M=18 and his push is enough to kill any PO call.

    But the 'bad move award' goes to the player with [A9] calling off his chips with a bad hand when he gets caught stealing. He has no fold equity in calling. He has to get lucky and make a hand better the all-in guy.

    5405:3755 or Pot odds of 1.44:1.
  5. Cortz Cortz is offline

    Youngtown, AZ
    United States

    Posts: 6,736
    Joined: Dec 05

    Feb 6th, 2008 (2/6/2008 11:43pm) in reply to dynamite d

    whose the donkey now? You stand alone your terrible and horrible dont ever tallk like im a bad player when i schooled you on this topic. I see the people in the thread agree with me, thanks.
  6. dynamite d dynamite d is offline

    Clarksburg, WV
    United States

    Posts: 434
    Joined: Mar 06

    Feb 7th, 2008 (2/7/2008 12:05am) in reply to dynamite d

    Yes, he has fold equity but what if the guy raising has a big hand, which 22 does not know, what fold equity does he have pre flop. Quit looking at the fact that he holds A9 and calls the shove.

    There is not a single hand out there 22 had dominated. The shove is uncalled when the OR could actually have a big hand that is the point.

    Too many players think 55 and lower PP are good hands. They are only good if they hit a set or are very short and need to shove.
    Thread Starter
  7. Tarvin Tarvin is offline

    Warrenton, VA
    United States

    Posts: 542
    Joined: Aug 07

    Feb 7th, 2008 (2/7/2008 8:13am) in reply to dynamite d

    Yes, the OR could have a monster, but he might have spent the entire game raising light. We don't really know based on one hand history. But you really shouldn't look at it like that, you should look at it like this:

    pokerstars Game #15031464548: Tournament #75901412, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2008/02/03 - 12:36:53 (ET)
    Table '75901412 205' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
    Seat 2: MpireMaker (2692 in chips)
    Seat 3: agata10 (4205 in chips)
    Seat 4: vmnielsen (1350 in chips) is sitting out
    Seat 5: sysephus (2720 in chips)
    Seat 6: POKERMANBIRD (4673 in chips)
    Seat 7: ozzyrocks111 (1255 in chips)
    Seat 8: pasopderiver (2425 in chips)
    Seat 9: victor200188 (5105 in chips)
    agata10: posts small blind 75
    vmnielsen: posts big blind 150
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to POKERMANBIRD [9s Ac]
    sysephus: folds
    benno42 is connected
    POKERMANBIRD: raises 300 to 450
    ozzyrocks111: folds
    pasopderiver: folds
    victor200188: folds
    MpireMaker: folds
    agata10: raises 3755 to 4205 and is all-in
    vmnielsen: folds
    POKERMANBIRD: ?

    Now you've raised in early position with A9o, which is at best a marginal move. You get reraised for almost 30bbs and 90+% of your stack. What could this person make this kind of reraise with? Even if you assign an incredibly loose range of 22+, QJo+, J10s+, you're still only going to win 41% of the time, assuming I know how to use Pokerstove. You're not really dominating much of anything there. Yes he hit the high end of the possible range, giving him about 50% to win but I don't think that's going to happen very often, making the A9 a bad call.

    As a side note, why the hell was this in the Bad Beats? It's a standard flip.
  8. stevel1017 stevel1017 is offline

    United States

    Posts: 1,320
    Joined: May 06

    Feb 7th, 2008 (2/7/2008 2:36pm) in reply to dynamite d

    3 words, the gap principle
  9. djelove djelove is offline

    Billerica, MA
    United States

    Posts: 239
    Joined: Oct 07

    Feb 7th, 2008 (2/7/2008 10:38pm) in reply to rivverkiller

    ^^^^

    agree

    22 shove is bad, A9 call much much worse.
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