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What would you do??

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  1. billybaroo billybaroo is offline

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    Jan 17th, 2012 (1/17/2012 5:40pm)

    My stack 32,000, blinds 400-800 ante 100. UTG limps, cutoff limps, I raise to 3,500 with AdQh. Big Blind tanks and shoves for 15,000. I called because I put him on a small pair at best and I was getting 2-1 pott odds. There was 120 players left and top 45 make the money.Was this the right play?

    BTW, he had AK and won.
  2. TheVillageGrinder TheVillageGrinder is offline

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    Jan 17th, 2012 (1/17/2012 5:46pm) in reply to billybaroo

    Is this live? reads on said player? had he been nitting it up or had he jammed it in a few times before? how good/bad was the rest of the table? how were they playing?

    ____Getting 2:1 on a call
  3. billybaroo billybaroo is offline

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    Jan 17th, 2012 (1/17/2012 5:53pm) in reply to TheVillageGrinder

    Live Tourney. WSOP Circuit event $345 buy in. Just got transfered to that table but he had made that move before unfortunaltly without a showdown. The rest of the table was playing extremely aggressive.
    Thread Starter
  4. djdoodoo djdoodoo is offline

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    Jan 17th, 2012 (1/17/2012 6:31pm) in reply to billybaroo

    I think you definately have to fold with the information you've given. You're not beating much. You're only ever in a coin flip because I don't see him doing this with AJ and below.

    Edit: dominated or a coin flip even.
    Edited By: djdoodoo Jan 17th, 2012 at 06:31 PM
  5. kevmode kevmode is offline

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    Jan 17th, 2012 (1/17/2012 7:33pm) in reply to djdoodoo

    I call in this spot with AQo op unless you have a strong read on the player or you see his neck throbbing or pick up some kind of tell. The player in the big blind has a perfect resteal stack vs your raise and AQ feels to strong to fold here.
     
  6. scottypimpin1 scottypimpin1 is offline

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    Jan 17th, 2012 (1/17/2012 7:52pm) in reply to kevmode

    I'm laying this down here for sure, you only lost 10% of your stack on your raise, while you'd lose 50% of your stack if you call and lose. If you feel like he has an underpair i don't see enough of an advantage of calling in hopes of a coin flip for half your stack, i need alot better than a flip for risking that many chips.
  7. MYBLUEDOG MYBLUEDOG is offline

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    Jan 17th, 2012 (1/17/2012 8:07pm) in reply to scottypimpin1

    For a live action WSOPC event, your open is to large. 4.5*bb is bloating the pot even with limpers.
    You should want to keep the weak players in the pot and/or save chips if you face a major raise and need to fold.
    [AQ] is not a hand to go AIPF if you want to make a deep run.
  8. TheGibbons TheGibbons is offline

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    Jan 17th, 2012 (1/17/2012 8:08pm) in reply to MYBLUEDOG

    Haha wow, the rare thread where kevmode is the lone voice of reason. This is an easy call. The villain has an <20bb stack and has 3bet shoved before -- his range here should be way wider than AK and big pocket pairs. It should be more like most pocket pairs, AJ or AT+, and even some random suited connector hands. You're getting great odds (slightly worse than 2:1, but still) to call. The only way folding here would make sense is if he was super old.
     
  9. kevmode kevmode is offline

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    Jan 17th, 2012 (1/17/2012 8:24pm) in reply to TheGibbons

     
    Originally Posted by TheGibbons View Post

    Haha wow, the rare thread where kevmode is the lone voice of reason. This is an easy call. The villain has an <20bb stack and has 3bet shoved before -- his range here should be way wider than AK and big pocket pairs. It should be more like most pocket pairs, AJ or AT+, and even some random suited connector hands. You're getting great odds (slightly worse than 2:1, but still) to call. The only way folding here would make sense is if he was super old.

    Solid post...

    Where is wacky, tyson or Gags to put in their input? I respect Gags and Tysons post on dissecting hands from mtts because they are very good players and know what they are talking about.
     
  10. billybaroo billybaroo is offline

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    Jan 17th, 2012 (1/17/2012 9:12pm) in reply to kevmode

    Thanks for all the post!
    In regards to MYBLUEDOG post, I raised 4.5 BB to isolate and identify hand ranges. Should I not be doing this?? What should be the standard raise here?
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  11. P33J P33J is offline

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    Jan 17th, 2012 (1/17/2012 10:22pm) in reply to kevmode

     
    Originally Posted by kevmode View Post

    Where is wacky, tyson or Gags to put in their input? I respect Gags and Tysons post on dissecting hands from mtts because they are very good players and know what they are talking about.

    Poor Wacky, no love from the Mode. As for the hand OP I think your raise looks pretty strong but I couldn't really see folding it with the price you are getting. If my quick math was right you are calling 12300 into 22200 which is 1.8 to 1 which means you need about 37% Equity versus his range. At an aggressive table verus a player who has already 3 bet shoved once I would feel confident enough to make this call.
     
  12. Sagacious Man Sagacious Man is offline

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    Jan 17th, 2012 (1/17/2012 10:59pm) in reply to P33J

    Agree. I wouldn't fold unless the player was a confirmed nit or I had a gut instinct. He could do this with flipping hands and if he's aggro then AJ is in the range too. Even against KK or QQ you are 30% so almost getting the right price. Only 4 hands you arenin bad shape against AA KK QQ or AK. I also don't like the raise size, assuming you are in SB and will have to play oop vs 2 players.
  13. billybaroo billybaroo is offline

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    Jan 17th, 2012 (1/17/2012 11:25pm) in reply to Sagacious Man

    I was on the button. What would be the right raise in this spot?
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  14. P33J P33J is offline

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    Jan 17th, 2012 (1/17/2012 11:28pm) in reply to billybaroo

     
    Originally Posted by billybaroo View Post

    I was on the button. What would be the right raise in this spot?

    Raise size is fine imo. He was thinking you were in the sb in which case you would want to make it larger.
     
  15. Sagacious Man Sagacious Man is offline

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    Jan 17th, 2012 (1/17/2012 11:37pm) in reply to P33J

    On the button I think your raise size is ok because you at least have position post flop and you have easy decisions after the flop being in position with the pot bloated. My preference is to raise less though, around 3-3.5x.

    Actually I think a bigger raise is probably better now I think of it 3.8 - 4.5 x
  16. kasey_gcp kasey_gcp is offline

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    Jan 17th, 2012 (1/17/2012 11:48pm) in reply to Sagacious Man

    U realize we have a thread about this event right? I'm in event #6 right meow table 35/2
  17. wackyJaxon wackyJaxon is offline Admin X

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    Jan 18th, 2012 (1/18/2012 12:11am) in reply to P33J

     
    Originally Posted by P33J View Post

    Poor Wacky, no love from the Mode. As for the hand OP I think your raise looks pretty strong but I couldn't really see folding it with the price you are getting. If my quick math was right you are calling 12300 into 22200 which is 1.8 to 1 which means you need about 37% Equity versus his range. At an aggressive table verus a player who has already 3 bet shoved once I would feel confident enough to make this call.

    Hehe, I don't take it personally since I'm mostly a mixed cash player and tend to just play some tournaments on Sundays more for a change of pace, so I don't comment much on the NLHE tournament hands as Tyson, Gags, and many other posters can do comment much better from experience. I do agree with Kevmode's first post in the thread, especially since you opened so large with 4X+ BBs.
      1 
  18. TheVillageGrinder TheVillageGrinder is offline

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    Jan 18th, 2012 (1/18/2012 1:54pm) in reply to wackyJaxon

    Why are ppl criticizing his bet sizing here? There are two limpers behing here. i think he sized it quite properly tbh.

    There are quite a few factors pointing in the direction of call here.

    A.)We've only been at this table a short time and have already seen the player jam over an open once,
    B.)the player has the perfect sized stack to be making this move,
    C.)you are iso'ing from the button and with a 40bb stack so ur range could be extremely wide here,
    D.)you are getting a very nice price to call

    Only way I could lay down here is if said villian is about 95 years old or if we have reason to believe that he's just not capable of understanding that you could be iso'ing a wide range otb. Devoid of these two factors, its a pretty standard call imo.
  19. djdoodoo djdoodoo is offline

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    Jan 18th, 2012 (1/18/2012 2:55pm) in reply to TheVillageGrinder

    I'm assuming it's because he's only 30 bb deep unlike 100bb deep like a cash game.
    He should be raising to 3bb or something like that total. Min raise it normally and with 2 limpers stick in another blind. When the blinds are this big, there is no reason to bet 3bb when you're first to act and 4.5bb is too big an "iso raise" grinder. Min is good.

    Also, this isn't an iso raise as there are two limpers in the pot. I feel that when he raises smaller as said he has more reasons he can make to fold.
    Edited By: djdoodoo Jan 18th, 2012 at 02:59 PM
  20. tyson219 tyson219 is offline Moderator

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    Jan 18th, 2012 (1/18/2012 3:05pm) in reply to djdoodoo

    Great post from villagegrinder. I agree him, kevmode and everyone else that said call above. You're priced in to call v. all but the biggest nits.

    Why would we raise less than 4.5x? In a live tournament a standard raise is going to be 2.5x. With a limper 3-3.5x. With 2 limpers I would raise at least 3.5 upto 4.5x. If people are willing to limp/call OOP, why shouldn't we be forcing them to put in more chips? Sure, in this hand it makes it more difficult to fold when one of the blinds shove. But, in general, we're getting to play a larger pot in position v. limp/calling live fish. Sounds like a good strategy to me.

    Edit: no djdoodoo, it's still an iso raise -- you're attempting to isolate the limpers. what part of that isn't an iso?
    Edited By: tyson219 Jan 18th, 2012 at 03:05 PM
     969 
  21. djdoodoo djdoodoo is offline

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    Jan 18th, 2012 (1/18/2012 3:09pm) in reply to tyson219

    Tyson do you not agree a min raise is fine pre in an unopened flop? Or does that give blinds better odds and is why you are opposed to it?

    Was under impression iso was to just isolate one person, makes sense though.
    Edited By: djdoodoo Jan 18th, 2012 at 03:09 PM
  22. tyson219 tyson219 is offline Moderator

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    Jan 18th, 2012 (1/18/2012 3:13pm) in reply to djdoodoo

    I always min raise or 2.1x online. I don't play much live, but when I do and from what I've seen/read, I prefer a 2.3-2.7x raise. There are other people here that play a lot more live and can explain why a lot better, but my general feeling is that the min raise is too likely to be flatted by people behind you and in the blinds. A slightly larger raise avoids that issue. I could be completely wrong though.
     969 
  23. billybaroo billybaroo is offline

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    Jan 18th, 2012 (1/18/2012 3:24pm) in reply to tyson219

    Thanks for all the post guys. All the feedback is much appreciated and i will take all ideas in consideration. However, after reading all the post I think I am satisfied with my call here and its unfortunate that I ran into AK. It just so happens the next hand I got AQ again in the cutoff after there were two limpers and I shoved and got called by KQ. KQ rivered a straight. YUCK. Thanks again.
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