[TheGfactor]

Pretty rare to get reasonable cash advice here but worth a shot. There's a lot of ways to play this hand post I think. Villan, Kingboromir likes to play pots with me, and has gotten overly creative in the spots we've played up to this hand today. I like my line personally but am multitabling and might not be optimal so i'd like to hear some thoughts. You can agree, disagree with the line taken just try to give the best explaination of how you think the hand should be played. All relplies are welcome everyone.

pokerstars Game #27406724388: Hold'em No Limit ($3/$6) - 2009/04/23 12:49:42 ET
Table 'Althaea' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Deal 'em22 ($777 in chips)
Seat 2: KingBoromir ($664 in chips)
Seat 3: d@rlo_AA ($294 in chips)
Seat 4: Mr_Wej ($652.60 in chips)
Seat 6: Hero ($600 in chips)
d@rlo_AA: posts small blind $3
Mr_Wej: posts big blind $6
FoolMeTwice: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Js Jc]
Hero: raises $12 to $18
Deal 'em22: folds
KingBoromir: calls $18
d@rlo_AA: folds
Mr_Wej: folds
*** FLOP *** [9d 8c Qc]
Hero: checks
KingBoromir: bets $30
Hero: raises $65 to $95
KingBoromir: calls $65
*** TURN *** [9d 8c Qc] [Qh]
Hero: checks
KingBoromir: checks
*** RIVER *** [9d 8c Qc Qh] [9c]
Hero: checks
KingBoromir: bets $160
Hero:

[Goldenad]

i really dont like your line. what was the reason for the check/raise? was it for value or to bluff the guy off of a worse hand. if youre trying to represent a queen then you cant check the river

[elusively]

I would have led the turn for value, but I also would have led the flop.

How has he been value betting the river? Have you seen him check down marginal hands with some showdown value, like 1010 in this spot? As far as I can tell, you're only really beating a bluff here (forgive me if this goes without saying).

[jp144]

lead on the flop, the fire again on the turn. If he's still there on river u have to expect a Q or a flush.
The way its been played i think you could be ahead a good amount of time, i think he only makes the river bet, with a Q or a bluff, i assume he would check any str8, flush or a small value bet wiv a 9.
I prob call the river

[tjmullen07]

snap fold and fuck the heroe call, u put urself in a bad spot and foldeing saves u money.remember most bets on the river arent bluffs

[bluffslv]

I really like your line on the flop, but I think it would be best to follow through and fire again on the turn. After flatting a check raise, I don't expect villain to bet the turn without a made hand. The river is a bad card as the flush draw completes, and he could be easily calling with a 9 based on history. I don't think he shows up with 22-77, 1010, A high enough to call this even though it's tempting given history. AXcc is the only hand that makes sense you could bluff him off of. I would have to see villain make some good laydowns before trying that though.

[bluffslv]

 

Originally Posted by tjmullen07

snap fold and fuck the heroe call, u put urself in a bad spot and foldeing saves u money.remember most bets on the river arent bluffs

level? This could be a big bluff since after check raising hero has checked twice. Regardless if it's optimal, people love to bluff the river.

[TheGfactor]

Responding to some comments... Flop raise is for value in this spot for me, I can push him off certain queens in this spot or weaker draws like 76, 710 etc. Pretty sure I look hella strong easy utg and play pretty reasonable not to flip a complete bluff. With my image I can flip j10 here flopping the joint or QQ+, so him jamming on my check raise is pretty much the A high flush draw, j10, or set. Hes just not jamming this bet much ever. He could even be flatting 88 here hoping for a blank turn card or to pair the board as well just because i have to fold so much to a shove. I can still turn 10 if he flats, and get good club cards to come to help my hand as well. Turn isnt a good card to bet in my mind also.

[Drawing Dead]

 

Originally Posted by tjmullen07

snap fold and fuck the heroe call, u put urself in a bad spot and foldeing saves u money.remember most bets on the river arent bluffs

This man 18 tables 25NL with a $300 roll, take his advice...

[patvoytko]

results?

[TheGfactor]

Just waiting on few more opinioins, ill fill in end of the ngiht.

[bigblacktruck]

I no cash game expert but i do play near this level. :(

I would cbet this flop, around 35. If he flats, I would lead again with second queen on turn. If he calls again I'm Check folding river.

If he RR my flop bet I call and reevaluate turn. Truthfully if he fires a good size bet on Turn I let the hand go. If he checks behind on turn I would check call about 1/2 pot bet on river.

Flame away.

[Frank1The1Tank]

I didn't read all these responses into great detail, but pretty sure almost everyone here gave pretty poor advice. Definitely do not check raise this flop. You said it was for value and then you said he would fold some queens? How can you contradict yourself like that. That means you're expecting better hands to fold, turning JJ into a bluff (and NOT value). We still didn't learn too much about villain's postflop aggression and tendencies, but just based on what I read, I think the best line is to jut c/c every street and let him either barrel or at the very least allow yourself to control the pot. I think best lines are like this: c/c > lead > c/r > c/f. Decide on turn (again based on his tendencies) whether to lead after you c/c flop. If he'll slow down with his draws and play them much more passively once you call flop, then lead turn and force him to pay. Definitely do not c/r this flop though lol.

[Kenny Rap]

great play for plo tho u have the blockers

i call river btw. i think he bets turn with a q and he panicked on river with 0 showdown value. someoene said something about a flush at some point and i dont look at suits in hhs tho

[Kenny Rap]

ok i guess he could have 89. thats about the only hand i can put him on that beats u. he cant bet the river with a flush. he cant have a queen with check on turn. T8 for a river bluff?

[elusively]

 

Originally Posted by Frank1The1Tank

Decide on turn (again based on his tendencies) whether to lead the turn after you <strike>c/c</strike> lead the flop . If he'll slow down with his draws and play them much more passively once you call flop, then lead turn and force him to pay. Definitely do not c/r this flop though lol.

I was thinking along the same line, but I like to lead the flop with our image and the villains image. I like the check/call though and I incorporate that some % of the time here depending completely on who I'm playing against.

[TheGfactor]

 

Originally Posted by Frank1The1Tank

I didn't read all these responses into great detail, but pretty sure almost everyone here gave pretty poor advice. Definitely do not check raise this flop. You said it was for value and then you said he would fold some queens? How can you contradict yourself like that. That means you're expecting better hands to fold, turning JJ into a bluff (and NOT value). We still didn't learn too much about villain's postflop aggression and tendencies, but just based on what I read, I think the best line is to jut c/c every street and let him either barrel or at the very least allow yourself to control the pot. I think best lines are like this: c/c > lead > c/r > c/f. Decide on turn (again based on his tendencies) whether to lead after you c/c flop. If he'll slow down with his draws and play them much more passively once you call flop, then lead turn and force him to pay. Definitely do not c/r this flop though lol.

Dont think I ever said he would fold queens, huh?

[Frank1The1Tank]

 

Originally Posted by TheGfactor

Dont think I ever said he would fold queens, huh?

 

Originally Posted by TheGfactor

Responding to some comments... Flop raise is for value in this spot for me, I can push him off certain queens in this spot or weaker draws like 76, 710 etc. Pretty sure I look hella strong easy utg and play pretty reasonable not to flip a complete bluff. With my image I can flip j10 here flopping the joint or QQ+, so him jamming on my check raise is pretty much the A high flush draw, j10, or set. Hes just not jamming this bet much ever. He could even be flatting 88 here hoping for a blank turn card or to pair the board as well just because i have to fold so much to a shove. I can still turn 10 if he flats, and get good club cards to come to help my hand as well. Turn isnt a good card to bet in my mind also.

[TheGfactor]

Flatting the flop definitley is the standard play in this spot I would agree, C/R is a option though, to say it shouldnt be an option vs someone you play a reasonable amount of hands vs is one way to get exploited pretty well and potentially not get the most value out of the hand, while eliminating him playing a extremelly tough board in position. Check raising is a reasonable option in my mind for sure still.

[TheGfactor]

yes certain queens would mean: kq q10 qj no clubs unless your saying he never folds those to this raise, which some people dont. Then its prob more of a flat in this situation you could say.

[Frank1The1Tank]

Dude you really should study postflop play or something imo. Not trying to be a dick obviously as I've spent considerable time posting responses in this thread. To say you will get exploited because you elect not to c/r the dead center of your range is pretty ridiculous. You can have a very well balanced c/r range in this spot including nuts or virtual nuts (sets/2 pair/overpair/tpgk/etc) as well as draws and air. You also don't have to c/r all these to balance it out for when you just c/c your dead center range. Check raising here is really bad because if/when he calls, you have absolutely no idea where you're at in the hand, and you are typically getting worse hands to fold to you (that you could extract more value from) and better hands to call. The worst part is you will end up OOP in a check raised bloated pot on an extremely heavy board with a very marginal hand.

Also your whole idea that queens like KQ/QT/etc. (obv I didn't mean QQ and neither did u) will be folding to you is absolutely ridiculous. Your check raise cannot be for value if you are expecting better made hands to fold. It would instead be a bluff as you are trying to get a better hand than yours to fold (the definition of a bluff).

[TheGfactor]

 

Originally Posted by Frank1The1Tank

Dude you really should study postflop play or something imo. Not trying to be a dick obviously as I've spent considerable time posting responses in this thread. To say you will get exploited because you elect not to c/r the dead center of your range is pretty ridiculous. You can have a very well balanced c/r range in this spot including nuts or virtual nuts (sets/2 pair/overpair/tpgk/etc) as well as draws and air. You also don't have to c/r all these to balance it out for when you just c/c your dead center range. Check raising here is really bad because if/when he calls, you have absolutely no idea where you're at in the hand, and you are typically getting worse hands to fold to you (that you could extract more value from) and better hands to call. The worst part is you will end up OOP in a check raised bloated pot on an extremely heavy board with a very marginal hand.

Also your whole idea that queens like KQ/QT/etc. (obv I didn't mean QQ and neither did u) will be folding to you is absolutely ridiculous. Your check raise cannot be for value if you are expecting better made hands to fold. It would instead be a bluff as you are trying to get a better hand than yours to fold (the definition of a bluff).

I better start studying up on my postflop skills more. Harsh critic for always someone who sits out every time I try sit hu vs., not tryin to be dick tho.

[TheGfactor]

Results wise, I ended up folding becuase theres just too much I assumed he think i would call with in this spot. Thx for the responses everyone, even u frank.

[Frank1The1Tank]

Well I do care about hourly, and you are a good reg so no reason for me to play you regardless of who's better. Playing against someone where our edge is really marginal is a waste of time when I can spend it playing fish. GL though.

[zurk89]

this hand is pretty awful. you insult frank, but your play is horrible. check raising the flop pretty much folds out the little hands you beat, and gets hands you lose to and draws you barely beat stay. you raise flop, then give up on the turn. people play so straightforward on turns and you giving up loses control of the hand and pretty much shows your hand is not that strong. why would you raise flop, then check turn putting you in a spot where you have no clue where he is at?

you inflate the pot, out of position, with JJ, on a very ugly board. no offense but this is the basic stuff you learn at like 10NL.

[pikappraider78]

i like your play pre and check raising the flop seems good. i lead the turn for sure and if were raised i fold and if he calls i check and think hard on river and most likely fold. checking the turn gives us a tougher decision on the river where we have to worry about calling a bet and hoping we have him beat. by leading the turn we are representing a huge hand and i think they will be folding a lot of there range

edit: lol i posted before i read the responses and i guess this is why i do not play cash, although i do want to learn it. I still dont get why we want to underep our UTG raise by check calling though. check raising and firing on the turn looks very strong and can be AA KK AQ 99 88 10js. there are a ton of hands in our range that would take this line. i feel that check calling check calling polarizes our range at 1010 or jj or maybe a weaker queen like kq or jq.