Originally Posted by werd2u

 

Originally Posted by Jennifear

 

Originally Posted by werd2u

Open fold against an agressive unkown and prob 2.5x/fold to anyone else. Are you serious you would shove here? Shoving 12.5 BB's with this weak of a hand has to be bad.

It's not about how tight he is/should be calling, it's about not putting your entire stack in danger when you don't need to.

Post this hand in STTF on 2+2 where players that actually understand SNGs post and see what kind of responses you get. Nm I'll do it for you.

Open folding for anything other than metagame purposes is just really bad unless you have reason to believe that the BB is super loose. This is definitely all about how tight he is calling.

FWIW some very good SNG players responded to this thread here. I'll be interested to read what the folks at 2+2 have to say.

The whole reason I posted this thread was to see what most people would do, not what you should do. I still believe that most people would limp, but most people disagree with me.

oh no I understand your reasons for posting but your reasoning for the how the hand should be played is what intriques me. I've always held the notion that you shouldn't be pushing until you or all the players to your left are <10BB's, and this just seems like a spot that would get you into trouble. The 2+2 thread will start a debate trust me :)

I find that a lot of players also believe that shoving or folding under 10 BBs is standard, and that shoving 10.1+BB is a cardinal sin. Daniel Kelly (djk123) recently discussed the virtues of sometimes shoving more than 10 BBs (though he was talking about a MTT format). Sometimes there are great reasons for shoving more than 10 BBs, and this hand is a great example of that.

We have an opponent who is out of his comfort zone against a shove. If I were forced to shove this hand, and somehow I got to pick my opponent's stack size, I very well might choose 1600-1700 for him. It's enough to cripple him, but he's not desperate yet.

Folding is bad just because he isn't calling often enough. Nash shows that it's an easy shove (given push/fold) if your opponent is calling 24%, but with that stack size, I could see many players calling only 10-12%. I think we can both agree that anything other than shoving is a clear mistake if he is calling 12% or less.

I think what gets you into trouble here is not shoving, but rather the other non-folding options, such as raising 2.5x or limping. All of a sudden you are potentially faced with playing a hand out of position, whereas shoving takes away his positional advantage completely.

I can't wait for the debate on 2+2. I agree this thread you made will stir the pot. I think I'll sit back and watch for a while, and comment tomorrow. I'm glad you started that thread.

 

Originally Posted by werd2u

Open fold against an agressive unkown and prob 2.5x/fold to anyone else. Are you serious you would shove here? Shoving 12.5 BB's with this weak of a hand has to be bad.

It's not about how tight he is/should be calling, it's about not putting your entire stack in danger when you don't need to.

Post this hand in STTF on 2+2 where players that actually understand SNGs post and see what kind of responses you get. Nm I'll do it for you. (edit: that prob sounded somewhat negative, it's not you just peaked my interest because I thought I was push/folding perfectly these days)

id like to see what beanmo hutch and mantrid would say about this.

 

Originally Posted by inissint

eh

especially in a low limit sng like this, i am flatting if I think opponent is not the type that will know to shove wide

but Jen obv pwns all, and the math is obv the math

plus I am semi retired from sngs (inasmuch as the higher ones hardly ever run)

but this is one of those spots where even though it is +ev or whatever, I am probably too arrogant to shove, thinking the chips I pick up are not worth the risk of busting here

I have always hated 50/100 level too...so brutal.

"necessity" ftw

I understand where you're coming from, but I also think this is the kinda thing that if it is done one too many times you are going to get looked up. Personally, I try to note players that are shoving in spots like this that I would normally fold and take a short note on them...and that generally leads to spite calls later because they are not respecting my blind and giving me a walk that early, haha

EASY FOLD on partypoker......they will call you with any Ax, Kx, Qx, Jx...god even T7s looks good to them..... FOLD!!!!

 

Originally Posted by Jennifear

 

Originally Posted by iTakeUALLin

so the hero shoves and never gets called by anything he/shes ahead of, and every other time we pick up 150 that does practically nothing for the heros stack. i don't understand.

It's the frequency of the pickup that matters.

For instance, if we shove and get called 12% of the time:

- We win 150 88% of the time
- We double up 4% of the time
- We lose 8% of the time

All in all that's a great gamble! Miles better than folding.

as always i do appreciate your posts, they are always very helpful. however i don't see how shoving is the best play here. using numbers or ranges for perfect play can't mean anything because almost no one is playing that way, especially at the $16 level. i don't know how often this situation will come up in sng on average, but i'm really stuck on the juice not being worth the squeeze. most of the time we get 150 and are still in the same boat (stackwise), sometimes we're completely out of the tournament and even fewer times we double up. i've shoved in situations like this before, and it seemed like a lot of the times i was in some 60/40, and ran terrible. then i would be angry with myself for not waiting it out a bit longer for a better spot. i don't know, this just seems unnecessary to me, but i clearly have a lot to learn. thanks Jen.

I am shoving here 100% of the time...getting called by QT and losing on the river when the T ball hit...

Avg player shoves just cause it's suited...

A. Since we're last, since it's a turbo: shove. However if not a turbo and we have a decent stacksize fold or flat with intention to fold to a shove.
B. Call and expect the BBto check.