Yep, I always read it as the dry not d-ry.

someone who playst he 100r tho can attest since im not good

could you elaborate on how you play during the rebuy period? Are you moving all in almost every hand preflop, orjust calling a lot of raises to try and hit big hands, or just waiting for good drawing hands and moving all in/calling raises with them?

I cant wait for imper1um's answer

D-ry,

Holla.

I think the 109r and 215r should be played a little tighter than maybe the WSOP 33r and other smaller tournaments. Here is why I think this is true...

The play is much tighter and the players are much better. The maniac rebuy strategy will certainly not have as much EV as it does in lower levels--even after the break. I think that in these tournaments you will often drop $2k or whatever far more often than you'll be in top 3 at the break.

The field is much smaller. Your money will be a larger % of the prize pool, meaning you'll have to finish much higher much more often for the tournament to be +EV. But, of course, the players are much better, so variance throws that out of wack. I'm not sure if this bullet makes complete sense, but it does in my head.

I'm usually in these things for 5-6 buyins. Of course, it is always -EV to quit before the first break. Never do that.

Table dynamic, yo. When I was playing the 215r this weekend, BackDoorovic was going all in every hand for the first half an hour or so. Obviously we will accept variance in these situations and widen our range, hoping to build a monster stack.

I ran out of ideas. A lot of this is basic, so I'll just say I wrote it for everyone, not just Danny.

Holla,

Goggles

Funny -- you were at one of my tables last night and a dude was calling u Danny, and it dawned on me for the first time ever that your name is "the D- Ry" not "the Dry". I like "The Dry" better, but good to know. So anyway, D-ry....

I have no idea what is optimal in rebuy period but I think Shaniac wrote a good article on it. The first guy you should ask besides Shaniac is Phatcat, who is a sick 100r and 200r player who often lays out several rebuys to get his stack on.

FWIW, I think you have to gamble of course and press any edge for the chance to 2x or 3x, but I see a lot of guys who are just plain silly with the open shoves; that HAS to erode long term profitability.

i don't have a very big sample size but I was just looking at all my stats for the 100r on stars and I was actually pretty surprised.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width=472 align=center><TBODY><TR><TD>$100r</TD><TD>68</TD><TD>117%</TD><TD>$471</TD><TD>$59,444</TD><TD>$26,788</TD><TD>$612</TD><TD>$32,043</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
So I guess I only spend about $400 per 100r which is like $1-200 less then I thought it was gonna be. Anyways I don't know the point to this is as I've added nothing to this lol, but those are my stats.

You need to think about tournaments mathematically. There is no "magic" that occurs by having a bigger stack; rather, having a stack of 2x has a value that approaches twice the value of a stack of x. I got into an argument at one dinner in the PCA about how maniacing can be correct. But it is never right to just gamble with the intent of trying to get chips if it is not mathematically correct. You need to estimate your edge, and play accordingly, factoring in your edge.

For instance, assume you have a 100 ROI regardless of the number of chips you have, and it is the last hand of the rebuy period, and you are in the BB against a SB push, with a 3k stack. If you fold leaving yourself with 3k, you will get to 5k with a value of roughly $600 in your hands. If you call and double up, you will now have 8k, worth about $950, if you lose, it will cost you $200 to get that $600 stack.

So if you win the allin, you gain $350, if you lose, you lose $200, so as long as you win 4/11 of the time, or roughtly 35% of the time, calling can be correct here. However, if this situation occured earlier in the tournament, it could more easily be passed up as you have more opportunities to take less -CEV spots that end up being more +$EV.

Also; as stacks get deeper, the value you gain by being able to rebuy back in becomes more and more marginal. In the past example, if you had 9k chips, you could addon to have an 11k stack worth $1300, if you lose and rebuy, your stack will be worth $600, after losing $200, if you win and double up, your stack will be worth close to $2400, so here you need to win about 7/18 of the time for a call to be correct.

Here if you win the allin, you win $1100, if you lose, you lose $900, so for a call to be correct, you need to win about 45% of the time.

Sorry for the rambling, just trying to give some sort of idea that maniacing these tournament requires a huge edge, and reasonable spots, calling allins with very marginal hands is very rarely correct in these tournaments without a stupidly huge edge. It should also be noted that as your stack becomes larger, your edge will decrease, which further limits the amount you should gamble.

I'd say only draw the line if your approach is not working... I'm not sure what your stats are in the 100 rebuy, and im not about to look them up, but if you do as well as you do in other tournaments I'm sure your stats in the rebuy are sick too. I do not enjoy spending over 500 dollars in the 100 rebuy. It drive me crazy... and not because my bankroll can't handle it, but more because i get tilted out when i'm losing. I have won the rebuy twice, and both times i was in for 500 and 300... in fact i have never final tabled when in for more than 1k. IMO you are better off playing tight agressive in the first hour and picking your spots, rather than gambling for the purpose of chips.

This is a very good question and one I've pondered often but been too lazy to put in the work to analyze my data very thoroughly as the software i use to track my results is not very good about filtering on various buy-ins or tourneys. So, thank you for prodding me to export my data into excel and do a little investigation.

Unfortunately, I don't have one very relevant piece of data which is very important and would be very interesting to see some statistics if anyone has tracked this, but stack size at the end of rebuy is an essential piece of information in order to draw any conclusions. Both in how it correlates to average buy-in and to average profit(which of course will be different for everyone).

Having said that I think it's also important to realize that ROI is very misleading in general(except when used to derive a more significant number such as average profit) but especially in rebuy tourneys. Here is a specific example derived from my data in the Stars 100r's over the last 18 months or so:

over 55 tourneys where i was in for $309 i had and ROI of 178% and average profit of $550.
over 29 touneys where i was in for $709 i ahd an ROI of 97% and average profit of $689.
over 16 tourneys where i was in for $1109 i had an ROI of 56% and average profit of $620.
I will gladly take the 97% OR the 56% ROI over the 178%(i know 16 tourneys is not a significant sample, but for the sake of argument let's assume this holds true over a more significant sample size) and so should anyone, assuming their bankroll is sufficient to withstand the higher variance associated with a higher average buyin.

I suspect if you plotted average profit versus average buyin over a very large sample you would come up with a variation of a bell curve with lower average profit at the lower average buyins and gradually increasing to some peak and then dropping back off as the average buyins exceed a certain point. Where that peak is is the key and the average level of maniac employed to get that average buyin at the peak of the curve is where a person would maximize their profit(which, again, would be wildly different for different players styles and abilities).

As pointed out in an above post, the smaller field sizes in the 100r (as opposed to smaller rebuys) makes it much less profitable to maniac as the ratio of the prizepool to your investment is so much smaller. There is certainly a level at which there is no way you can have a long-term positive expectation, i.e. rebuy too much. However, does that mean once you reach a certain level you should quit rebuying or quit gambling??? absolutly not. how much you have spent at any point is irrelevant to future decisions. It is a "sunk cost". The only decision to be made at that point in time is whether the particular call or push is long-term +/-EV. But what it does mean is your overall strategy for the rebuy period should take into account that it is possible to spend too much. I think this is part of what Timex was trying to point out. The question is how much is too much? I don't know the answer and it's different for everyone.

Lots of rambling for not much in the way of conclusions I know. Just more to think about and hoping that someone has tracked stack size in these rebuys as it would be very interesting to see.

fwiw,
phatty

just wanna say i like the ideas being discussed in this thread.

I think if you can lower your average investment by $400 and average 1st hour stack by 3k it's a +EV play. A 1500 chip rebuy costs $100, so $400=6k. I'd say that since you're a very strong player the value goes up, so possibly losing 3k for you is like losing 4-5k for an average player. This is obviously still less than 6k. Obviously this analysis is rather basic, but i think it's legitimate.

gent bot paragraphs please

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" bgColor=#ffffff border=0><TBODY><TR bgColor=#eeeedd><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top> </TD><TD>Re(1): Where should I Draw the Line on going Rebuy Crazy during 1st hour of $100rebuy??????? Thoughts and Ideas welcomed
by StaggerLee on 3/7/2007 14:04 </TD><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><NOBR> </NOBR></TD><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD bgColor=#ffffff></TD><TD colSpan=2><TABLE cellPadding=2 border=0 celspacing="0"><TBODY><TR><TD>E-mail Stars support for all of your tourney results in Excel format. They will show all the rebuys in a seperate column. You can use the file to accurately calculate your ROI. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Be sure not to eat before you view this email. I was pretty sick when i saw mine. But seriously take a look at it and figure out what you are really spending, surely there is no doubt you're making a profit from the style you have now.

Cajun sends

I'm going to go ahead and agree with pretty much everyone else, be willing to invest more as long as the gambles you take are 0EV or better assuming you have a positive skill edge. Randomly gambling and blind all ins can be fun, but these aren't going to add chips to your stack in the long run or put you in the top 3 more often.

When deciding whether or not to gambol hard in the bigger rebuys, the 1st thing i look at and think you should look at is the players at your table. You know who gambols and who waits for Queens or better. If the table is going to gambol, I dont mind gambolin if everyone else is although i honestly think its just as easy to get a 6k-9k stack playing poker in 1st hour as it is by gambling. As much of a crapshoot as it can be late, I think it may be better to try and keep your investment lower.

BeL0W