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Excluding the donk-type freeroll players which you'd hardly find , isn't poker just a game of luck when everyone is playing just perfectly especially towards later stages of tournaments..
For example, player A on BTN open-raises x3 with pocket 10s and player in SB shoves 6 big blinds with AQo and gets called..flop 267K9...gg AQ...nobody played wrong
I mean where's the edge coming from when everyone is playing just correctly?
I'm asking this because I face such situations towards later stages of tournaments and its just luck most of the time..whether the A misses or hits..thats all -
grapsfan
Head Curmudgeon
Posts: 7,980
Joined: Jun 05May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 10:50pm) in reply to n2kfactor
And exactly what tournaments are you speaking of where everyone plays perfectly? The ones you're in? The ones I'm in?
If you talk to someone like lilholdem or charder, there's plenty of donks and bad play in the stars 100r, where you or I might think everyone plays "perfectly".
If you're good, and if you're smart, there are always edges to take advantages of. Nobody plays perfectly. -
Posts: 7,332
Joined: Apr 07May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 10:50pm) in reply to n2kfactor
Find more than 5-10 ppl playing perfect poker...seriously man have you seen how many +money winners there are online?
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Posts: 7,332
Joined: Apr 07May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 10:52pm) in reply to bef99hwk
And the edge comes in coinflips and having the bigger stack...the edge comes from being able to take sick beats and regain a stack...the edge comes from playing the person, not waiting for AA like me, etc. GBoro isn't ranked #1 and I'm not 100100585774th for a reason, no matter how good he runs.
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zander
anomaly in his crotch
Posts: 6,036
Joined: Dec 06May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 10:54pm) in reply to n2kfactor
Dood, if you think more than like 5% of players are playing <STRIKE>perfectly</STRIKE> even remotely close to optimally at the micro-levels, you are seriously missing a lot. Also, something tells me you have ZERO understanding of the sample size required to differentiate good players from great players from weekend warriors from mentally retarded monkeys who somehow have access to a human's credit card.
Given a field of mostly great players, luck plays the larger role than skill in any one given situation. The larger the sample size, however, the cream inevitably rises closer to the top. I think you are having a hard time grasping how big that sample size is though.
I'd say most of the top 100 ranked players here make several mistakes every day. No one plays the game perfectly... and way fewer play the game well than think they play the game well... but if you think it's all luck, you lack one of the fundamentals necessary to win <STRIKE>unless your name is Vietcong</STRIKE> at poker. -
Posts: 346
Joined: Oct 08May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 10:56pm) in reply to n2kfactor
Yeah but where's the edge when I'm shoving 99 and getting called by QA??
There are hardly any donks in the game I play...
ITS ALWAYS A COINFLIP ALL THE TIME...I don't know why -
NK2 you need to listen to guys like zander and bffhawk...both good players trying to help you, but all your posts seem to be just silliness, and not listening at all to the people trying to help you
Originally Posted by zander
Dood, if you think more than like 5% of players are playing <strike>perfectly</strike> even remotely close to optimally at the micro-levels, you are seriously missing a lot. Also, something tells me you have ZERO understanding of the sample size required to differentiate good players from great players from weekend warriors from mentally retarded monkeys who somehow have access to a human's credit card.
Given a field of mostly great players, luck plays the larger role than skill in any one given situation. The larger the sample size, however, the cream inevitably rises closer to the top. I think you are having a hard time grasping how big that sample size is though.
I'd say most of the top 100 ranked players here make several mistakes every day. No one plays the game perfectly... and way fewer play the game well than think they play the game well... but if you think it's all luck, you lack one of the fundamentals necessary to win <strike>unless your name is Vietcong</strike> at poker. -
Posts: 8,633
Joined: Jan 06May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 11:01pm) in reply to n2kfactor
sometimes there is nothing u can do, but if most of the time u have applied ur edge in the hands before the coinflip then hopefully u will have more chips than ur opponent and will still be in after the flip, win or lose.Originally Posted by n2kfactor
Yeah but where's the edge when I'm shoving 99 and getting called by QA??
There are hardly any donks in the game I play...
ITS ALWAYS A COINFLIP ALL THE TIME...I don't know why -
Posts: 346
Joined: Oct 08May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 11:05pm) in reply to AmSlim22
I don't understand...PXF won't help me either
the only thing I learned from PXF is open shove ATC in SB against <10BB opp.
and yeah, raising some more hands from LP and Cbing etc.etc. -
grapsfan
Head Curmudgeon
Posts: 7,980
Joined: Jun 05May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 11:09pm) in reply to n2kfactor
Then fucking quit. Nothing personal, and I'm not trying to be mean - although I sure feel like it.Originally Posted by n2kfactor
Yeah but where's the edge when I'm shoving 99 and getting called by QA??
There are hardly any donks in the game I play...
ITS ALWAYS A COINFLIP ALL THE TIME...I don't know why
But people give you advice in every post you make. Good advice. And you seem to listen to none of it. So, you think everyone plays perfectly...but are looking to call them donks anyway....
I think there's always a donk in the game you play, N2K...wanna guess his name?
So in one hand, you played right with 99, and you got called correctly with AQ, and you lost the flip. Boo fucking hoo. Happens to every single one of us, every single day.
My guess is you missed dozens of opportunities to chip up before that spot, and be in better shape to survive losing the flip. Spots where you could have raised from the cutoff and stolen the blinds, but you clicked on "auto-fold" with your 97off. Spots where a super-loose player c-betting the flop, and you folded 2nd pair because you weren't paying enough attention to notice what a LAGtard he is. Spots where you could re-raise with AJoff, but you're afraid of it.
We all miss those spots...but are trying to improve rather than fucking whine about it. Personally, I hope to have you posting more when you're doing more improving and less whining. But not until then. -
Posts: 346
Joined: Oct 08May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 11:13pm) in reply to grapsfan
I think you said itOriginally Posted by grapsfan
My guess is you missed dozens of opportunities to chip up before that spot, and be in better shape to survive losing the flip. Spots where you could have raised from the cutoff and stolen the blinds, but you clicked on "auto-fold" with your 97off. Spots where a super-loose player c-betting the flop, and you folded 2nd pair because you weren't paying enough attention to notice what a LAGtard he is. Spots where you could re-raise with AJoff, but you're afraid of it.
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Posts: 545
Joined: Mar 06May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 11:13pm) in reply to n2kfactor
99 is a favorite over AQ, no?Originally Posted by n2kfactor
Yeah but where's the edge when I'm shoving 99 and getting called by QA??
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Posts: 346
Joined: Oct 08May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 11:15pm) in reply to n2kfactor
Thanks a lot.
Not trying to be rude..I'm just too argumentative by nature and want to understand the game better...I'm surely listening to what everyone has to say and only I know how much I value all these replies, although I may not show it and continue arguing over poker stuff..Thats just me. -
Posts: 311
Joined: Jul 08May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 11:18pm) in reply to n2kfactor
Lots of great comments.
I believe he is referring to SNGs which are completely over run with ICM Pushbots these days. I have to admit they are completely aggravating but the edge is those comes in identifying who they are and how they play. Once I spot a Pushbot player I tend to call much more with any ace since I know I have the pre flop edge on most flips.
As long as I get my money in with the best of it when it really matters I know in the long run the odds will swing my way regardless. -
Posts: 339
Joined: Sep 08May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 11:21pm) in reply to AmSlim22
uhhmee plays every hand perfectly.Originally Posted by AmSlim22
find one player that is playing perfectly....
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IF everyone played perfectly or the same then yes, you would be correct. That is certainly not the case. everyone plays differently and the good players will always make adjustments based on what they see everyone else doing.
the flips deep in a tournament are luck, and that is a big part of poker. It is only ONE element of the game however... -
graps is one of the nicest guys on this site, and youve tilted him a bit too.. LISTEN...meh this is my last post about it, but dude cmon, your replies and posts just get more ridiculous
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grapsfan
Head Curmudgeon
Posts: 7,980
Joined: Jun 05May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 11:33pm) in reply to aupoker1
I've been called an asshole more times than you'd guess, and I've probably deserved it more than I'll admit. There are plenty of P5ers whose contribution-to-insult ratio is much better than mine.
But I'm a firm believer that nobody listens if you sugarcoat the truth. I think most of N2K's threads are living, breathing examples.
The truth, N2K, is you should never use the word "donk" about another person ever again. You're in no position to use it now, and as you improve, you won't want to. People who play bad should be embraced and encouraged, not insulted. -
grapsfan
Head Curmudgeon
Posts: 7,980
Joined: Jun 05May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 11:36pm) in reply to Neek
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yessssssssssssss grapsfan has finally been broken!!!!
Originally Posted by grapsfan
Then fucking quit. Nothing personal, and I'm not trying to be mean - although I sure feel like it.Originally Posted by n2kfactor
Yeah but where's the edge when I'm shoving 99 and getting called by QA??
There are hardly any donks in the game I play...
ITS ALWAYS A COINFLIP ALL THE TIME...I don't know why
But people give you advice in every post you make. Good advice. And you seem to listen to none of it. So, you think everyone plays perfectly...but are looking to call them donks anyway....
I think there's always a donk in the game you play, N2K...wanna guess his name?
So in one hand, you played right with 99, and you got called correctly with AQ, and you lost the flip. Boo fucking hoo. Happens to every single one of us, every single day.
My guess is you missed dozens of opportunities to chip up before that spot, and be in better shape to survive losing the flip. Spots where you could have raised from the cutoff and stolen the blinds, but you clicked on "auto-fold" with your 97off. Spots where a super-loose player c-betting the flop, and you folded 2nd pair because you weren't paying enough attention to notice what a LAGtard he is. Spots where you could re-raise with AJoff, but you're afraid of it.
We all miss those spots...but are trying to improve rather than fucking whine about it. Personally, I hope to have you posting more when you're doing more improving and less whining. But not until then.
Gags30 is an instructor at PocketFives Training . To get more of his advice and to watch his training videos, click here.
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Posts: 4,775
Joined: Jun 07May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 11:39pm) in reply to n2kfactor
people dont play perfectly. yes, there are some situations that play themselves, like the one you mentioned. if having 6bbs is common place for you in tourneys, you need to adjust your strategy
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Posts: 346
Joined: Oct 08May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 11:39pm) in reply to grapsfan
I'm sick of poker but I can't live without it..
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Posts: 148
Joined: Dec 05May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 11:55pm) in reply to n2kfactor
How old are you N2K?
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andressoprano
whaddya think of my game?
Posts: 5,224
Joined: Jan 07May 15th, 2009 (5/15/2009 12:34am) in reply to Gags30
LMFAOOriginally Posted by Gags30
yessssssssssssss grapsfan has finally been broken!!!!Originally Posted by grapsfan
Then fucking quit. Nothing personal, and I'm not trying to be mean - although I sure feel like it.Originally Posted by n2kfactor
Yeah but where's the edge when I'm shoving 99 and getting called by QA??
There are hardly any donks in the game I play...
ITS ALWAYS A COINFLIP ALL THE TIME...I don't know why
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Posts: 551
Joined: Sep 06May 15th, 2009 (5/15/2009 1:53am) in reply to grapsfan
Hey graps,Originally Posted by grapsfan
Then fucking quit. Nothing personal, and I'm not trying to be mean - although I sure feel like it.Originally Posted by n2kfactor
Yeah but where's the edge when I'm shoving 99 and getting called by QA??
There are hardly any donks in the game I play...
ITS ALWAYS A COINFLIP ALL THE TIME...I don't know why
But people give you advice in every post you make. Good advice. And you seem to listen to none of it. So, you think everyone plays perfectly...but are looking to call them donks anyway....
I think there's always a donk in the game you play, N2K...wanna guess his name?
So in one hand, you played right with 99, and you got called correctly with AQ, and you lost the flip. Boo fucking hoo. Happens to every single one of us, every single day.
My guess is you missed dozens of opportunities to chip up before that spot, and be in better shape to survive losing the flip. Spots where you could have raised from the cutoff and stolen the blinds, but you clicked on "auto-fold" with your 97off. Spots where a super-loose player c-betting the flop, and you folded 2nd pair because you weren't paying enough attention to notice what a LAGtard he is. Spots where you could re-raise with AJoff, but you're afraid of it.
We all miss those spots...but are trying to improve rather than fucking whine about it. Personally, I hope to have you posting more when you're doing more improving and less whining. But not until then.
Maybe your next article should be about what it's like to be on the rag. =p
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