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Who calls here?

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  1. pockets0071 pockets0071 is offline

    Hellesdon
    United Kingdom

    Posts: 162
    Joined: Mar 08

    Aug 2nd, 2009 (8/2/2009 9:03am)

    okay I don't have the hand history, so bare with me. Just interested to see who would make this call. And if you think this call is standard/read dependant/awful, etc, etc.

    So basically was in the ten rebuy on stars last night. 35 left out of the 2500 (or so) that started and i am sitting in 3rd with 980k blinds 6k/12k.
    UTG ships 300k or so utg. And I reship all in from mid position with QQ.
    Big blind who is the chip leader and has 1.1 million in chips, then calls with AK.

    Not going to reveal the results as I feel they are irrelavent. I just wanted to know who here after playing 6 or so hours and pretty much guaranteed final table spot would call 80 big blinds in the villains spot with ace high?

    imo i am never calling here in his spot. Just wanted to see the general consencus.
     
  2. tom44411 tom44411 is offline

    Toronto
    Canada

    Posts: 1,908
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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (8/2/2009 9:06am) in reply to pockets0071

    AK never loses

    on a serious note its all dependant of your image. if youre LAG then i snap but if its a nit id lean towards folding
     
  3. ThumbsUp_Pal ThumbsUp_Pal is offline

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (8/2/2009 9:12am) in reply to tom44411

    never folding ak ever
  4. pockets0071 pockets0071 is offline

    Hellesdon
    United Kingdom

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (8/2/2009 9:13am) in reply to tom44411

    probs shooda stated that my image is tag.
     
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  5. ThumbsUp_Pal ThumbsUp_Pal is offline

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (8/2/2009 9:24am) in reply to pockets0071

    so your tag, what range of hands do you iso here?
  6. pockets0071 pockets0071 is offline

    Hellesdon
    United Kingdom

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (8/2/2009 9:38am) in reply to ThumbsUp_Pal

    AK and JJ +. are the hands i iso here. I understand that to the villain i am a complete random. So my range according to him can be alot wider. But just personally, I would never call here 80 bbs + when your either flipping/chopping/or a big dog. But i guess it is the ten rebuy. And i have seen peeps make this iso with AQ and worse I suppose. I just didnt see the logic in calling here. When you have spent so long getting in such a great position in the tournament to call off in which so much of the time you are going to be a flip.
     
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  7. Yourangutang Yourangutang is offline

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    Aug 4th, 2009 (8/4/2009 12:52am) in reply to pockets0071

    On one hand your all in makes it seem more likely that you have QQ JJ 1010 AK than AA or KK. It is a pretty borderline spot with AK though, he certainly has enough pot odds to gamble if he's really really confident that its a coinflip, I think that he would need to be around 90% certain or close to it that you dont have Aces or Kings though.

    I think that if a larger stack had raised from early position and you had made a standard 3 bet from middle position this would be an automatic fold with just AK. People tend to see an all in preeflop raise and assume it cant be KK or AA, even though I personally would have probably shoved played both of those hands the exact same way that I'd play QQ there and wouldve shoved.

    Basically I think that I would probably fold AK here pretty easily since I have to believe that not only is there at least a 20% chance that you have KK or AA but there is also a chance that the shortstack has you both beat with KK or AA as well as a decent chance that he has one or two of the big blinds outs if he is shoving AQ or AK.

    So I agree with you that its probably a fold, I strongly disagree with your reasoning that he should let the fact that he's worked so long to get this deep and can likely cruise to the final 9 spots influence his decision here. The big money is mostly in finishing in the top 3, and being chip leader with over 30 people left is far from a guarantee that you will make the final table with a decent chip stack, so you should always be thinking in terms of winning not just moving up or making the final table
    .
    I've had a few 14th to 30th place finishes in these things over the past month and I may have made a few scared decisions myself that didn't optimize my chances of winning so I understand the thought process but its definitely a mistake.

    BTW, if you think that this was a rough call, I got knocked out in 14th place of a 1300 man MTT the other day when I shoved my last 10 bbs with 83suited from the small blind and actually got called by 6 high and lost.
  8. pikappraider78 pikappraider78 is offline

    Gainesville, FL
    United States

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    Aug 4th, 2009 (8/4/2009 1:02am) in reply to pockets0071

    im going to give simple ranges and not even discount aa and kk from the utgs range even though they should be..... lets say utg is at 99+ aj+, your at 1010+ and AQ+. if thats about right then ak is fine here. if your range is significantly tighter then its a fold. this is really player dependent, how was your image, and how was the utg shippers image?

    the thing is even if your range is jj+ and ak he has enough equity. you would have to be shoving super tight to make this a fold with all that xtra money in the pot. also this is a spot where if he loses he still has a workable reshove stack, but if he wins he is redonkulously stacked and cruising to the final table.
     
  9. ChuBby78 ChuBby78 is offline

    Toronto
    Canada

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    Aug 4th, 2009 (8/4/2009 1:12am) in reply to pockets0071

    I had almost the exact same thing happen to me the other day I think there was 27 left and I had QQ in the big blind and almost a million chips. The chip leader had 1.6 million and raised 300 k from the small blind. This guy had been raising way out of line for about and hour so i pushed cause I was sure he had nothing and was just trying to bully me. He insta-calls with K5 off and turns a king. Now i couldn't care less about the beat I don't talk about bad beats but I am really in the same position as you were. Do I just call and see the flop, I really wanted to end it right there which is why i pushed cause i didnt want to get stuck making decisions in a huge pot with the chip leader in that situation. As for the hand you were in its totally crazy to be third in with AK in that situation. What could you possibly been isolating with, its clearly not a bluff. I don't know how to counter guys like that. I think you did the right thing regardless ho it turned out especially because even if you lose making the isolation play the guys stack cant hurt you that bad, but itreally mucks it all up when the guy calls with AK behind you.
  10. Yourangutang Yourangutang is offline

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    Aug 4th, 2009 (8/4/2009 12:22pm) in reply to pikappraider78

    The fact that the UTG raiser is pushing about 25+bbs and the middle position repusher is shoving 90 bbs has to make the ranges a lot tighter unless these two guys have been playing really loose.

    for the UTG raiser to shove 25 bbs when he isnt even really close to shortstacked I would put a semi reasonable player on 1010 - QQ or AK. Honestly shoving that much with 25 bbs still left is just a wierd raise regardless but I'd be shocked if he didnt have one of those 4 hands. If he has AK then the bb will only have 4 outs against QQ and is in really bad shape. For the second raiser to shove if he is a fairly solid player I would think that he needs JJ - AA or AK, and AA KK would both be shoving hands to isolate against the UTG raiser. If I am the big blind here I need QQ - AA to make this call. Even QQ would be a sort of a acrying call.
  11. bluffslv bluffslv is offline

    Las Vegas, NV
    United States

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    Aug 4th, 2009 (8/4/2009 12:46pm) in reply to Yourangutang

    I don't really expect anyone to fold AK ever, I probably would in that spot. UTG isn't desperately short stacked so you can't be isoing THAT wide prob JJ+ AQs+. For him to overcall both shoves it should be QQ+ AKs, but not everyone plays optimally. I'm guessing since you made this post he won it, UL dude :(
  12. Gizzitere Gizzitere is offline

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    Aug 4th, 2009 (8/4/2009 1:17pm) in reply to bluffslv

    My view on this is that if he raises early he is very strong and with with that i would only ever call with QQ or KK only a re raise with the rockets .
    at least then you can assess the flop and if its a cold flop you can pull off all sorts of moves like a push or check/raise just watchout for the check raise one as if he pushes first you gonna see the last 2 cards and with net poker (you know what i mean) like the ace will come.
    if flop an ace then you easy away and still in the game when your allin you putting your game in his hands.
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