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This week I've had alot of near misses of final tables and its made me decide to assess my play a bit. That post about Samenole made me think that I lack alot of patience. If I'm shortstacked I generally don't wait to get it in good -- I do wait to be first in most of the time but sometimes I'll call all in knowing I'm behind hoping to suck out just because I hate being short stacked so much. This isn't what I do on a regular basis but I've done it before (and did it tonight). I'm going to do my best from now on to be more of a short stack "ninja" rather than a dude whose already admitted defeat.
I also have this great talent at blowing a big stack that i need to work on, sometimes its really inevitable other times I just try to push people around to much. For instance, in the super today I tried to resteal from a button raiser (who had been raising a ton) with A6, the bb woke up with QQ and I lost 1/2 my stack. I guess the read was right because the button raiser folded, but I didn't need to be risking 1/2 my stack with an A6 os in the first place. I was also a bit tilted because I had been kinda bluffed out of a pot that I couldve taken.
I need to find that balance between aggression and overaggression. I know for sure that sitting around waiting for the nuts isn't going to win any tourneys but I also know that getting your money in as a dog alot of the time isn't going to help either. Also, I get a bit overaggressive on the bubble... the midstack isn't gonna fold AA even if we are 1 from the money...
My general strategy of play is tight most of the time with a couple of steals in position and 1 or 2 bluffs for huge pots here and there. Recently, I think I've been getting a little bluff happy and gamb00ly.. Just things to work on... peace
apestyles is an instructor at PocketFives Training . To get more of his advice and to watch his training videos, click here.
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You have a good game, adding another situational speed is prob a good thing BUT don't tweek with it too much. gg gl
dela -
That means a lot coming from a successful and respected player like yourself. I think mainly, before I make big aggressive moves I need to ask myself a couple of questions. Like 1.) is this player capable of laying down a hand 2.) Am I doing this because I think it will work or because of ego and 3.) what is the risk/reward here? I don't think I should stop making big moves though.
And as a shortstack I think I need a little patience but I will definetly not stop pushing (if I'm first in) in position, I think its a +ev play overall.
I think I've also realized that in the endgame, there is nothing wrong with occasionally going out with the worst hand, in the beginning if you go out with the worst hand youre just playing bad... -
Ape,
I can totally relate to your post. I make, and am working on the same mistakes. Don't you think it's funny that when you make an overaggressive move you can instantly 'feel' it. It's like you know you are making a questionable move and just HOPE it works. Those are the moves that put me on tilt when they don't work. If i have a high degree of confidence in an aggressive move I am much more likely to laugh about how it didn't work than get upset about it. Also, I have realized that at certain times on certain tables it is optimal strategy no never make a move and only play strong values. You know this type of fish, the loose agressive moron that will not fold even if every indication says to do so. Play at these tables tries your patience because you see so much bad play going on that you want to get in there and take all of the loose chips, but trying to do so often leads to the rail. just some thoughts -
The last part of your comment about wanting to get in there with the donkeys and take their chips hit the nail on the head in my instance. I sometimes get tilty in games like this and end up on the rail because I know they are making poor decisions and I try to 'force' those in my favor. In reality, I'm just pissing in the wind and throwing away my money. Like the old saying goes. "Never get into an argument with an idiot, people won't be able to figure out who's who". Well, don't get lower your standards because everyone else sucks. You'll just look like another donkey. Nice comment...got me to thinking about my own game...thanks...
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I agree with the earlier poster who mentioned the difference between making a move based on your reads that you fully expect WILL work, and making a move based on inpatience that you HOPE will work. This seems to be the biggest problem that I have in the mid to late stages of tournaments, it seems that sometimes I just can't help myself from pushing all my chips in without having taken the time to think through whether this move is likely to work!
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Ape,
You bring up some very good points. Here is an observation I have made related to short stack play. After I first read HOH 2 and the whole M theory I realized the value of not letting yourself get too low and open pushing when you get the opportunity (M < 5) and started applying the concept as he suggests even playing any 2 if I'm first in with M less than 5. It worked great for awhile and kept me in the game or out of short stack mode more so than I had previously been playing. BUT, now everyone has read HOH and are much more cognizant of this concept as well and found myself getting called down much more often when pusing with less than a premium hand with an M around 5 or less. I'm starting to agree with a post that I read on here before that maybe this is a little too agressive now. Usually 4x BB is still enough to take down a pot and it has been paying off for me showing a little patience, waiting one more orbit for a good hand to push with rather than playing any 2. Of course there is a balance here and at some point you have to just get them in when you have the chance. What I'm saying is that I think it's much harder now to get people to lay down when you push with a low M becasue so many people are more aware what you might be doing thanks to Harrington.
FWIW,
phatty -
Damn Ape....you just wrote my exact leak. I make those exact same mistakes (even when I'm running well sometimes but for sure when I run bad that is a major factor). I should try to remember the tourneys I took down when i was down to 3-4 BBs late and didn't push any 2....especially on stars it is possible to make a great run late from short stack because the blinds and antes are so large. It isn't unheard or or unlikely to go from 3 bbs to chip leader in 5 minutes by winning 3-4 all ins. Samenole definately knows this all too well and is a prime example that you shouldn't panic just because you are short stacked.
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i just want to say i'm in the EXACT same boat... i'm looking for the fine line between aggression and over-aggression. like the other night when I had nines and the big blind had Aces. I raised three times the BB; he min reraised. I called putting him on two overs (which was a bad read - his fishy min raise should've tipped me). When the board came 772, I went all-in not wanting to let him draw out. well, he had aces and schooled me.
I think the solution to over-aggression is more probe betting (and less all-ins) to see where you are in the hand. -
We all get into situations where we know we shouldnt push and still do and after go wtf was I thinking.I did the same thing in the 05 wsop main event after raising and folding preflop 3 times in about 10 hands i pick up 10's raise and the loose maniac reraises me so I decide that if no overs come I'm going all in flop 973 he bets small I shove (when deep down I had a bad feeling) shows me AA and the long walk down the RIO's hallway.In the 04 wsop I was short stacked most of the way and 5 days later find myself at the feature table with about 800k but went comnpletley card dead and dwindle down too 200k with the blinds at 30k-60k I pick up A-6 UTG and I knew this was gonna be my last hand but still push and Matt Dean calls AJ gg me. So I guess what I am trying too say is listen too your gut feeling and dont hit that allin button when you know you shouldnt.
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apestyles...........didn't realize i use to play live w/ u quite a bit here in LBk....names Keenan
ttubeta -
this is the biggest flaw in my game. If I get shortstacked or start to fall behind the blinds I get overly aggressive. I certainly would never sit and wait for monsters, but some of the plays I make are just retarded. I think the fact that I can jump right into another game is a big factor on this.
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Great post. I used to be much more successful at my positional pushes before HOH 2 came out. I had my own rule and it was more related to 10x BB rather than M. I got the idea from the 2+2 forum (and a friend of mine trikflow77) and the concept of independant chip modeling. I have this calculator that assigns +ev or -ev values to certain pushes in relation to blind size and the players in front of you's calling ranges.
Anyway, that is neither here nor there. I do think there is alot of value to pushing with nearly any two but youre right I have been getting called alot more recently. Basically, peoples calling ranges have gone up so the play has less and less ev. I think that more than anything it requires more judgment based on peoples calling ranges and player observation.
Also, I don't completley agree with Harringtons M assessments - being an online player. I am fairly comfortable with 5 Ms and dont necessarily think I need to open push 10 8 in mid position with it. I think doing it occasionally isn't bad either. And with 8 Ms or so I def think that 3-4x bb and then folding to a reraise (if youre stealing) isnt a horrible move either...
That said, if i have 4-5x BB I'm going to push all but the trashiest hands on the button or on the cutoff if im first in. But I do think you are right in having more discretion and not overusing the this push w/ any 2 technique especially with everyones knowledge of it.
For instance, the other day Rizen called my 6x BB all in with A7 and I had 6 9... Now I know he is a strong player and he knows that I would push any two there (especially 69 hehe) so the value of that play is gone because he will call me with any significantly above average hand. I shouldve realized this and waited for a stronger hand.
Anyway, you said it best... this post is way disorganized because I'm trying to 4 table at the same time. In summary I agree with you but I'm also gonna keep stealing blinds with low M but with more discretion and perhaps actually wait for a decent hand occasionally.. However, I will not be blinded out, its just a lame way to go out...
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