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To be honest, I am so tired of rakeback companies all together!!! I think it is one of the biggest scams going in the poker industry. I am tired of hearing things like, "you can't get rakeback because you already have an account..." or "you can't change your rakeback company once you signed up with one..."

As a person who feels like I just got totally ripped off by my rakeback company **company name deleted** and Ultimate Bet, I am even further pissed off being told that I can't change my rake back company because I am already signed on with them. So for the rest of life, this horrible company is going to make money off me for all the hard work "I" put in, and I don't have a thing to say about this. This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard in my life!!!! I don't understand at all how I, We, whatever can let this happen and can't do a damn thing about it!

Why is it in the poker community, when we are the ones paying for everything, but are <span>constantly being dictated to what we can and can not do??</span> I mean without us, none of this stuff could exist and the rich couldn't keep getting richer. Why hasn't there been enough of a movement on things to stick together and for us (the community) to dictate to them what we want or need?

I guess where I am going with all this is why do rakeback companies even exist?? I mean at one point in time I understood why it was a huge pro to the site for marketing and promotional reasons to get more players on board. Is that really the case with the amount of communication in the industry today? I mean who hasn't heard of Fulltilt by the time they step in this arena? If they are a total newb, they aren't finding out about a site like Fulltilt through a rakeback company because they wouldn't even know what rakeback is. My question is, who is really benefiting through the rakeback companies anymore other than the rakeback company? Everyone and his brother is putting up a site for rakeback now because even if they run it bare minimal, it's a total gold mine for them putting in little investment!

Why don't ALL of the sites do away with dealing with rakeback companies all together and just cut their rake down to whatever they are paying out in rakeback or something there close? I don't know what the percentages are that the actually rakeback company is getting out of your rake, but why not cut the rake down to whatever they are paying back out anyway in rakeback and just have a lower rake on the site? The percentage that the rakeback company is making off you, cut in half with us at best, or the sites like Fulltilt and the like, just keep that percentage for themselves to make up for the difference of the rake they are cutting across the board and now losing because of players that weren't getting rakeback? Most of the people that are getting rakeback are grinders or higher volume players, the extra percentage the site can now keep of the rakeback companies cut, I would think would cover the recreational players that are not getting rakeback. All the big rakeback companies have prize pools, freerolls, trips, etc.... that are being paid out of this, the actual site can now use this money to cover loses or even offer more prizes for tournament leader boards, higher volume player, etc... I can't help but wonder if anyone has actually done any real due dilegence on this.

Can you imagine the first major site that implemented this program like fulltilt, what that would do across the board in the industry? It would even force a place like stars that doesn't have any rakeback affiliates to have to become more competitive as well on rake. Stars doesn't have rakeback and they are probably making a Fortune of this alone!

Is this really unrealistic? I think this would be a huge turning point in the industry, and I really think it is a good idea. I just don't see the full value for sites to continue with all the rakeback companies in todays times. What I really see is the advantages to a site to do away with it all together. I guess I also don't understand why we don't stand together more as a community, and I don't mean just PK5's but throughout our industry, and take bigger stands on things together. In the old days they would have walkouts, boycotts, strikes, don't ride the bus days, whatever to get points across. Could you imagine the ramifications for a major online site if they were boycotted for a day or two the amount of money they would lose to get a point across. I am not leading up a charge or anything I am just saying I am tired of being dictated to about what can and can't be done with my money is all. These are the kinds of things I think needed to be planted into peoples minds for bigger issues down the road.

My main point is that I really have had it over all this rakeback stuff. I don't want to do business with my rakeback company anymore and I have absolutely no choice! In what other industry in the world are you pigeon hold into a company when there are other choices out there and no monopoly? If anyone could explain to me why it is more beneficial for a site to keep rakeback companies on versus what I proposed, I would really love to hear the explanation if you are willing to take the time out to explain. Thanks!

Terrorized,

While I understand you're upset about something that happened, you cannot post the name of another rakeback company here on P5s under any circumstances. This is stated very clearly in the rules at the top of this forum. Please do not do this again...

Regarding rakeback, players in general do not tend to understand all of the ins and outs of poker site marketing. I can very much understand the frustration of players who either do not have rakeback and want it or are somehow otherwise frustrated do to their relationship (or lack thereof) with an affiliate they signed up through. That said, you may want to read this page, which could give a little bit more understanding as to why affiliates exist and what their purpose is: http://pokerterms.com/poker-affiliate.html

Rakeback may not be the perfect world (and probably isn't), but it's the best thing out there right now for a lot of players and that is the reason we offer it. I think you'll find if you ask around here that the people P5s provides rakeback to are generally extremely satisfied with the level of service we've given them, and they're happy to be getting extra money and promotions from us every month. While it may not be a perfect setup, we're doing the best we can with the way things are and trying to make our players happy.

--Adam

 

Originally Posted by naptime555

 

Originally Posted by Adam

Terrorized,

While I understand you're upset about something that happened, you cannot post the name of another <a href='http://rakeback.pocketfives.com' target='blank'>rakeback</a> company here on P5s under any circumstances. This is stated very clearly in the rules at the top of this forum. Please do not do this again...

Regarding <a href='http://rakeback.pocketfives.com' target='blank'>rakeback</a>, players in general do not tend to understand all of the ins and outs of poker site marketing. I can very much understand the frustration of players who either do not have <a href='http://rakeback.pocketfives.com' target='blank'>rakeback</a> and want it or are somehow otherwise frustrated do to their relationship (or lack thereof) with an affiliate they signed up through. That said, you may want to read this page, which could give a little bit more understanding as to why affiliates exist and what their purpose is: http://pokerterms.com/poker-affiliate.html

<a href='http://rakeback.pocketfives.com' target='blank'>Rakeback</a> may not be the perfect world (and probably isn't), but it's the best thing out there right now for a lot of players and that is the reason we offer it. I think you'll find if you ask around here that the people P5s provides <a href='http://rakeback.pocketfives.com' target='blank'>rakeback</a> to are generally extremely satisfied with the level of service we've given them, and they're happy to be getting extra money and promotions from us every month. While it may not be a perfect setup, we're doing the best we can with the way things are and trying to make our players happy.

--Adam

educated

FYP

 

Originally Posted by Adam

Terrorized,

While I understand you're upset about something that happened, you cannot post the name of another <a href='http://rakeback.pocketfives.com' target='blank'>rakeback</A> company here on P5s under any circumstances. This is stated very clearly in the rules at the top of this forum. Please do not do this again...

Regarding <a href='http://rakeback.pocketfives.com' target='blank'>rakeback</A>, players in general do not tend to understand all of the ins and outs of poker site marketing. I can very much understand the frustration of players who either do not have rakeback and want it or are somehow otherwise frustrated do to their relationship (or lack thereof) with an affiliate they signed up through. That said, you may want to read this page, which could give a little bit more understanding as to why affiliates exist and what their purpose is: http://pokerterms.com/poker-affiliate.html

Rakeback may not be the perfect world (and probably isn't), but it's the best thing out there right now for a lot of players and that is the reason we offer it. I think you'll find if you ask around here that the people P5s provides <a href='http://rakeback.pocketfives.com' target='blank'>rakeback</A> to are generally extremely satisfied with the level of service we've given them, and they're happy to be getting extra money and promotions from us every month. While it may not be a perfect setup, we're doing the best we can with the way things are and trying to make our players happy.

--Adam

Sorry Adam! I really wasn't aware of that. Won't make that mistake again.

 

Originally Posted by MarkFSU1

I didnt read all of OP but I do believe its a joke/complete bs that a player is required to maintain the affiliate relationship forever. In no instance is life is this ever the case where one unhappy party is forced to maintain a relationship forever. The way the system is set up it forces players to create new accounts and to cheat the system. In many instances we are not even allowed to know WHO the affiliate is. How can this be? Why is this? How am I not even allowed to know who my affiliate is? With all the multi accounting that goes on, the way the current <a href='http://www.pocketfives.com/visit/rakeback/' target='blank'>rakeback</a> system is set up does nothing but promote creating new accounts. Sorry, but thats the truth.

The player-affiliate relationship was something that was created a long time after the site-affiliate relationship. The concept of affiliates isn't really supposed to be something that affects players, but of course it does now. The player-affiliate relationship was something that was created by affiliates a few years ago, against the wishes of a lot of poker sites. Eventually more poker sites came on board (in the last 2-4 years, really) and at least decided an official stance. For a lot of sites (pokerstars, partypoker, iPoker, everest, OnGame, and more), their stance became very clear: We will not allow this. Other sites have embraced the concept of rakeback as a marketing tool (Full Tilt, Cake, Cereus, Merge, Everleaf, Boss, Entraction).

One thing is very clear -- from the player perspective, there is still a lot of work to do. If you're a poker player, unless you're extremely knowledgeable about all ins and outs of the industry, you're probably not going to care how poker sites are marketing to new players--you just want to make sure you're getting the best possible value wherever you're playing. Everyone's self-interested, and you shouldn't be any different....so it makes sense to feel that way.

From this angle, PokerStars probably has it right. In terms of continuous, tangible benefits, all players get the exact same thing regardless of how they signed up. There's no confusing message about affiliates (which most players aren't going to understand anyway) that is being serially handed out by customer support agents. Players don't have any major incentive to try and break the TOS by creating a new account. And they shouldn't...

That said, Full Tilt probably would not be nearly the size it is today if they hadn't started allowing large affiliates to market rakeback to their player base. Full Tilt grew by leaps and bounds around the end of 2006--very close to the time they started really letting affiliates push rakeback hard publicly. They saw an opportunity to snatch a large portion of the US player market, and they jumped on it--and it's certainly been good for business for them.

So it's up for debate--whether or not rakeback is a good thing to help the growth of poker sites, and whether or not it's a fair system for players. But like it or not, it's something that's here to stay and it's something that at this time we highly recommend to anyone to be playing with. You all have a choice. If you're stuck without rakeback on one site, there are plenty of opportunities to move your action and play with rakeback elsewhere.

 

Originally Posted by Terrorized

I think you are missing the point. Adam, although I do understand your position because obviously you folks are making money off it, nor do I doubt the level of service you all give to your customers. I think you guys probably do a great job!

However, I also think there should be some due diligence done in the industry to see what it would do for a site like <span id="misspell-2">Fulltilt</span> to do away with <span id="misspell-3"><a href='http://www.pocketfives.com/visit/rakeback/' target='blank'>rakeback</a></span> and cut their rake across the board. It would have a severe impact on the industry as a whole, not to mention that "my" money would stay in my pocket instead of being first shuffled off to a <span id="misspell-4"><a href='http://www.pocketfives.com/visit/rakeback/' target='blank'>rakeback</a></span> company that is taking a cut, making a percentage off interest for funds held for prize pools, packages, etc..., then being paid out to me at a later date. It's always more profitable for the consumer to get things at whole sale than having to go through a middle man. When you eliminate the middle man, it is always cheaper at wholesale. That is just business 101. The more people that have to put their hands on things, the more you pay in the long run!

I am aware that this topic is a threat to you, but it is not directed solely at PK5's <span id="misspell-6"><a href='http://www.pocketfives.com/visit/rakeback/' target='blank'>rakeback</a></span>. I am talking about the industry as a whole. Please don't take this as an attack on you guys, but a legitimate claim I have in the industry as a whole. I do believe my opinions (and they are just that) is creditable to share and look for feedback within this community.

Oh, I doubt I'm missing your point :) I understand no offense was meant, and none was taken. And don't worry, I don't consider your topic at all threatening to me :). Just remember that the fact that P5s is able to make a little bit of money is the only reason this giant sounding board exists for you to begin. There are a lot of expenses associated with running this site--it's far from free. Much to the chagrin of many, we can't simply do this as a non-profit thing for you. So if you like the fact that P5s exists for you to get your opinions out to so many people, it may be another fringe benefit that you should be considering before bemoaning the fact that "middle men" are able to make a little bit of money off your play.

Obviously your affiliate may or may not be providing you with any services that you enjoy and/or appreciate. But they're certainly providing Full Tilt and other poker sites with a lot of loyal, dedicated customers. And I know that Full Tilt appreciates it...