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Would a Thinking Player Fold....

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  1. ImoOnTilt ImoOnTilt is offline

    La Jolla, CA
    United States

    Posts: 38
    Joined: Nov 07

    Feb 10th, 2009 (2/10/2009 1:55pm)

    Alright this is a $4 180-man SNG on Stars (yea big money!) We are 6 handed and there are 13 people remaining. I have a strong table image. I raise UTG and have a MP flat-caller who I know is not a great player. Because of this I now realize I put myself in a bad spot, but against a better player would this have worked? Plus, he snap called my all-in which I though should at least warrant some thought...

    pokerstars Game #24778551529: Tournament #139724367, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level X (300/600) - 2009/02/09 21:44:16 PT [2009/02/10 0:44:16 ET]
    Table '139724367 4' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
    Seat 2: never0815 (11313 in chips)
    Seat 3: barn1cat (13390 in chips)
    Seat 4: ImoOnTilt (20524 in chips)
    Seat 5: smickles_79 (41020 in chips)
    Seat 7: jdazzle7 (25722 in chips)
    Seat 8: DallasDublt (23270 in chips)
    never0815: posts the ante 50
    barn1cat: posts the ante 50
    ImoOnTilt: posts the ante 50
    smickles_79: posts the ante 50
    jdazzle7: posts the ante 50
    DallasDublt: posts the ante 50
    never0815: posts small blind 300
    barn1cat: posts big blind 600
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to ImoOnTilt [As Kd]
    ImoOnTilt: raises 1195 to 1795
    jdazzle7 said, "hey tex how ya doin"
    smickles_79: folds
    jdazzle7: calls 1795
    DallasDublt: folds
    never0815: folds
    barn1cat: folds
    *** FLOP *** [4h Th 3d]
    ImoOnTilt: bets 2995
    jdazzle7: raises 2995 to 5990
    ImoOnTilt: raises 12689 to 18679 and is all-in
    jdazzle7: calls 12689
    *** TURN *** [4h Th 3d] [5d]
    *** RIVER *** [4h Th 3d 5d] [5h]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    ImoOnTilt: shows [As Kd] (a pair of Fives)
    jdazzle7: shows [Ac Td] (two pair, Tens and Fives)
    jdazzle7 said, "wow"
    jdazzle7 collected 42148 from pot
  2. TheVillageGrinder TheVillageGrinder is offline

    United States

    Posts: 1,970
    Joined: Sep 07

    Feb 10th, 2009 (2/10/2009 2:50pm) in reply to ImoOnTilt

    I"m assuming you meant if the villan were a thinking player, woulid he fold to your 4 bet shove with TPTK. Probably not.

    A thinking player would have not 3 bet you post flop if he did not plan on getting it in. Think about it. If he were to fold, he's turning TPTK into a bluff.

    I would also suggest that a thinking player would not flat with ATo against an utg raiser with a tight image.

    And oh BTW, don't expect to see too many thinking players in the 440s.

    If this were my hand, my question would be is this a good flop to cbet? I think its ok, as it isn't one to hit many hands. So i think cbetting takes it on the flop most times.

    I would say tho, that most ppl at this level, and this close to the ft bubble, are not three betting without the goods. Plus his bet size is just making it way too easy for you to call and/or give you the thought that you may still have some FE.
  3. fgreedyny fgreedyny is offline

    Posts: 18
    Joined: Feb 09

    Feb 10th, 2009 (2/10/2009 4:10pm) in reply to ImoOnTilt

    ... I know your question is can you get a fold on your shove but i think the proper line is check, he may check thinking you will check raise, float him if he bets flop....think he slows down on turn especially if scare card hits, if he bets, just fold, or he will showdown with TPTK...
  4. rivverkiller rivverkiller is online now

    White Rock
    Canada

    Posts: 6,352
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    Feb 10th, 2009 (2/10/2009 7:21pm) in reply to fgreedyny

    This is a very dry flop, c-bet 100% of the time. I hate your cont bet size though. He either has a hand or he doesn't. You only need to put in like 2000-2300. Once he minraises you, I doubt he's folding. Just let go of the hand. It kind've sucks that he donk called with A10 and hit his hand but that's poker...
     
  5. rivverkiller rivverkiller is online now

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    Feb 10th, 2009 (2/10/2009 7:24pm) in reply to rivverkiller

    Also you don't need to raise so much pre. 1300-1600 is ideal. My standard at this level is 1350 personally but this will change depending on chip stacks and players.
     
  6. ImoOnTilt ImoOnTilt is offline

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    United States

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    Joined: Nov 07

    Feb 10th, 2009 (2/10/2009 9:26pm) in reply to rivverkiller

    Thanks for all your advice so far. As to raise sizes I usually would not raise ~3BB UTG, but I wanted value out of a strong hand. No doubt $4 SNGs are brutal and my mistake was assessing the probability he would fold, I had less FE than I thought. His min raise just sooo weak on a dry board so I put him on a whole range of cards, figuring he would fold most of the time without a strong holding. However, in light of this, the competition was so weak I don't think I need to make those moves in the future since I'm better than those 13 that were left.
    Thread Starter
  7. TheVillageGrinder TheVillageGrinder is offline

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    Joined: Sep 07

    Feb 10th, 2009 (2/10/2009 10:47pm) in reply to ImoOnTilt

     
    Originally Posted by ImoOnTilt View Post

    His min raise just sooo weak on a dry board so I put him on a whole range of cards, figuring he would fold most of the time without a strong holding. However, in light of this, the competition was so weak I don't think I need to make those moves in the future since I'm better than those 13 that were left.

    first what riverkiller said

    second his min raise on the flop is actually real strength. He knows that if u have anything you will likely call. He's begging for you to call or try and blow him off his hand here. He's not making that raise to fold.
  8. thunderchild thunderchild is offline

    Brisbane
    Australia

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    Feb 11th, 2009 (2/11/2009 11:12pm) in reply to ImoOnTilt

    I may be way out of line here but I don't think Jdazzle7 is that bad of a player.His stats on OPR and scope are pretty solid.Im not sure how long he was in the room with you but it looks as if he knew exactly what he was doing after that flop.Would have been very interesting to see what happens if he misses the flop.
  9. Rad_Dude Rad_Dude is offline

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    United States

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    Feb 15th, 2009 (2/15/2009 2:52am) in reply to rivverkiller

     
    Originally Posted by rivverkiller View Post

    Also you don't need to raise so much pre. 1300-1600 is ideal. My standard at this level is 1350 personally but this will change depending on chip stacks and players.

    What he said.

    Also, you should be totally ready to fold AK with any sort of resistance after the flop. He made it that far no matter how you place him as a player and you want to really play solid to make the final table that late. Any sort of tricky play or in this case, your shove just seemed weird. If you know you had him beat, would you have shoved there? I think you over played AK to sum it all up.
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