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Would you fold or call pre flop with JJ? I folded...

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  1. 13ofSpades 13ofSpades is offline

    Colorado Springs, CO
    United States

    Posts: 16
    Joined: Sep 06

    May 13th, 2008 (5/13/2008 2:06pm)

    pokerstars Game #17402891100: Tournament #87754541, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2008/05/13 - 13:55:16 (ET)
    Table '87754541 19' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
    Seat 1: Lave12 (5720 in chips)
    Seat 2: Beat666ru (4365 in chips)
    Seat 3: crowie8 (6565 in chips)
    Seat 4: Micheldekid (2385 in chips)
    Seat 5: ossiking34 (2440 in chips)
    Seat 6: Esio Trot (5030 in chips)
    Seat 7: CRlegend (9485 in chips)
    Seat 8: poolplyr007 (7310 in chips)
    Seat 9: duckyben (4260 in chips)
    Esio Trot: posts small blind 50
    CRlegend: posts big blind 100
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to poolplyr007 [Jc Jh]
    poolplyr007: raises 300 to 400
    duckyben: folds
    Lave12: calls 400
    Beat666ru: raises 3965 to 4365 and is all-in
    crowie8: folds
    Micheldekid: folds
    ossiking34: folds
    Esio Trot: folds
    CRlegend: folds
    poolplyr007: folds
    Lave12: calls 3965
    *** FLOP *** [8h 3c Jd]
    *** TURN *** [8h 3c Jd] [7h]
    *** RIVER *** [8h 3c Jd 7h] [9h]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    Lave12: shows [Qs Qd] (a pair of Queens)
    Beat666ru: shows [Kc Kh] (a pair of Kings)
    Beat666ru collected 9280 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 9280 | Rake 0
    Board [8h 3c Jd 7h 9h]
    Seat 1: Lave12 showed [Qs Qd] and lost with a pair of Queens
    Seat 2: Beat666ru showed [Kc Kh] and won (9280) with a pair of Kings
    Seat 3: crowie8 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 4: Micheldekid folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 5: ossiking34 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 6: Esio Trot (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 7: CRlegend (big blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 8: poolplyr007 folded before Flop
    Seat 9: duckyben folded before Flop (didn't bet)
  2. cbacker48 cbacker48 is offline

    Jacksonville, FL
    United States

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    May 13th, 2008 (5/13/2008 4:08pm) in reply to 13ofSpades

    Fold. You still have around 70 bbs when you do, as opposed to calling more than half your stack off in a situation where IMO you are flipping/dominated a vast majority of the time.
  3. DAWS DAWS is offline OT's Youngest Grandpa

    Southington, CT
    United States

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    May 13th, 2008 (5/13/2008 4:43pm) in reply to 13ofSpades

    ^^^^^^^ I understand what you're saying - 70BB's if you fold... but if you call and lose you still have 30! Is that worth the chance to get a stack of 120+ BB's? I dont know how many players are in this tourney... that would help answer this question - what is 120BB's worth right now.... obv a read would help.... without a read can you really rule 88+ out of his range?
  4. 13ofSpades 13ofSpades is offline

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    May 13th, 2008 (5/13/2008 7:35pm) in reply to DAWS

    450 players left out of 2261, money starts at 333
    Thread Starter
  5. cbacker48 cbacker48 is offline

    Jacksonville, FL
    United States

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    May 13th, 2008 (5/13/2008 7:42pm) in reply to DAWS

    The situation is marginal without a read. Obviously if the squeezer is a maniac, then JJ is well ahead of his range. But you also have the flat caller to worry about, who could be trappy and flat you with a big hand, including AA, KK and apparently QQ. I think that with that stack you can dump the jacks and find spots to chip up while avoiding showdowns. If you want to gamble, then it's a marginal situation to try and get a big stack. Also, how well will you play your 120 bb stack? Are you the type of player who will punish the table with your chips or sit back and protect your stack?
  6. DAWS DAWS is offline OT's Youngest Grandpa

    Southington, CT
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    May 14th, 2008 (5/14/2008 9:22am) in reply to 13ofSpades

    absolutely agree the spot is marginal... however, being that you were nearing the bubble- if you are the type of player who will use your 120BB stack to seriously chip up- I think I'm getting in with the jacks here. Again, I understand it is a marginal spot, but you would still have 30 BB's left (provided the flatter wasnt trapping- you'd still have over 20BB's if he went AI)... this is a spot to get a huge stack in a critical part of the tourney that would allow you a great chance to build an even bigger stack and do damage... begin playing for the win here.

    I guess I'm not just looking at the hand...I am incorporating the current (and soon to be future state) of the tourney into my thinking... as prev poster said the spot is marginal, so if I were to look at the hand in a vacuum- I'd prob fold... but incorporating where you would be in the tourney if you won... IDK man- I think I like this spot to gamble and take the chance of making myself a threat
  7. cbacker48 cbacker48 is offline

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    May 14th, 2008 (5/14/2008 12:26pm) in reply to DAWS

    The blinds are at 50/100 when the hand takes place DAWS. I don't know what $5 MTT this is, but I am nearly certain that the bubble is at least another hour or two away at that point. With a 70 bb stack, you can afford hits to your stack when you attempt to 3 bet and steal while chipping up without showing down. Basically it all comes down to whether or not you want to GAMBLE. I would still fold most of the time.
  8. lordxixor101 lordxixor101 is offline

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    May 14th, 2008 (5/14/2008 12:52pm) in reply to 13ofSpades

    This is being results oriented. You have a caller and a raiser here. What are you hoping for here, really? You aren't going to be way ahead, and you could be up against some monsters here.

    I think I fold. Sure, you would have won the hand, but look what you were against, KK and QQ, whenever you can get out cheap with a JJ hand when your up against 2 undeniably better hands, I think you have to pat yourself on the back. That is a huge chip saving move most of the time.
  9. DAWS DAWS is offline OT's Youngest Grandpa

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    May 14th, 2008 (5/14/2008 2:02pm) in reply to cbacker48

    I was going on the OP's response of

    "450 players left out of 2261, money starts at 333"

    Yes, @ 50/100 sounds weird to be down that low, but I deferred to the OP.... and yes, it comes down to your gamble philosophy... I still think I'd put it in there knowing at worst I'd have over 20BB's (if flatter goes AI) and 30BB's if it is heads up.
  10. DAWS DAWS is offline OT's Youngest Grandpa

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    May 14th, 2008 (5/14/2008 2:06pm) in reply to lordxixor101

    the way everyone is squeezing and 3 betting/4 betting light nowadays?

    Knowing that I will not be knocked out if I lose, but will be a monster if I win- I'm getting the JJ's in there. I like to gamble in that spot.
  11. cbacker48 cbacker48 is offline

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    May 14th, 2008 (5/14/2008 3:07pm) in reply to DAWS

    I apparently can't read. Factoring in the bubble looming.....i'd fold.
  12. 13ofSpades 13ofSpades is offline

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    May 15th, 2008 (5/15/2008 11:39am) in reply to cbacker48

    Thanks for the feedback everyone.
    Thread Starter
  13. Ally Ally is offline

    Minneapolis, MN
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    May 16th, 2008 (5/16/2008 9:19am) in reply to 13ofSpades

    snap fold.

    Someone mentioned squeezing and re-raising light. You'd have to have a very good read on both of these guys to make this kind of a call. You are not seeing a squeeze with air in this spot. You generally aren't raising light under the gun for 4X just to pick up a few hundred in chips. The caller behind has to realize that you are strong but decides to call anyway. Then, utg+3 shoves with 5 others still to act and you still to act and the flat caller still to act? I'd put him quite frankly on AK, but he can profitably shove a big pocket pair here and get a call occassionally from 88 who was sure that the shove meant AK.
  14. Beereend Beereend is offline

    Hengelo
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    May 16th, 2008 (5/16/2008 2:56pm) in reply to Ally

    3- and 4- betting light? In a $5 MTT, everybody in these tournhaments is weak passive, thigh agressive (no sqeeuze only playing solid hands) or maniac. In this stage the maniacs are out. I really don't see how you can be ahead here.
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