after this hand i couldnt stop laughing

3-5 NL game at Tulalip Casino playing 8 handed - hadnt been at the table long so no reads but it was playing pretty typical loose-passive

im sitting in the cutoff with 56dd - action was 2 early position limpers and i raise it up to $25 and both players call

Stack sizes:
EP 1 - $1,000+
EP 2 - $700
ME - $600

Pot ($70)
flop: Kd-2d-7c

both check to me and i bet $35 and both call

turn: Kd-2d-7c-10d (pot $175)

both check to me again and i continue to go for value with my small flush (bet-fold line seems best here, tell me if im wrong) so i bet $100

EP 1 folds and EP 2 calls

river: Kd-2d-7c-10d-2s (pot $375)

now EP 1 quickly counts out a bet of $220 and slides it into the pot

I take a full 2 minutes or so and think through the hands a random would take this line with and come to the conclusion that he HAS to have a higher flush here (or the unlikely 77) - so i make the disciplined fold and show as im folding face up

at which point guy goes "WOW! YOU FOLDED A FLUSH!" and flips over QcKc for just top pair

at first i was kicking myself for making the fold, but on second thought i like my play. I mean, 99% of the time theres no way a small flush is ever good there when he check-overcalls the flop with 2 diamonds and check-calls a big turn bet and then suddenly LEADS the river right? Him having just a king was definitely a possibility up till the river, but when he LEADS into me i never even considered it because that would be such a horrible play.

your thoughts?

lol.... how can he be a bad player when he made you fold the best hand !!!!! looks like he put to much pressure on you and made u fold like a beitch ..... looks like your the bad player in my opinion !!!!

I can't even count the number of times I've seen guys sit down with a FT or PS hat on and go home crying after the 4th hour at a live 2-5 game... One thing is certain, the typical online players (not talking good regs) think they are better than they are and get punished for it when they start to play live...

Too bad you can't drop down to .10c/.20c NLH...

 

Originally Posted by jsagan77

I can't even count the number of times I've seen guys sit down with a FT or PS hat on and go home crying after the 4th hour at a live 2-5 game... One thing is certain, the typical online players (not talking good regs) think they are better than they are and get punished for it when they start to play live...

Too bad you can't drop down to .10c/.20c NLH...

r u serious right now?

so your telling me the lead on the river with KQ was the play of a thinking, wining player???? Give me a break

I fully welcome weak players and definitely WANT them at my table - just kind of a rare LOL spot where his horrid play actually worked cuz i was disciplined enough to fold and NOT make the crying call

 

Originally Posted by princeofpoker78

lol.... how can he be a bad player when he made you fold the best hand !!!!! looks like he put to much pressure on you and made u fold like a beitch ..... looks like your the bad player in my opinion !!!!

ever heard of being results oriented?????

just me or is the fact that he bet out quickly tell you something here? if had the bigger flush or the rare boat... I'd expect him to take some time thinking about how much to bet.


assuming it translates from online to live, that quick bet smells weak as shit to me. sort of like a blocker of sorts. If you were any deeper I would have been tempted to insta-shove on that guy with the now paired board. Don't know if you are deep enough to get a fold here ever....

 

Originally Posted by bonflizubi

just me or is the fact that he bet out quickly tell you something here? if had the bigger flush or the rare boat... I'd expect him to take some time thinking about how much to bet.

assuming it translates from online to live, that quick bet smells weak as shit to me. sort of like a blocker of sorts. If you were any deeper I would have been tempted to insta-shove on that guy with the now paired board. Don't know if you are deep enough to get a fold here ever....

definitely a good point you have about how quickly he bet - i need to work on picking up live tells like this

as for it being a blocking bet - yeah that would make sense if he bet a smaller amount (isnt that the whole point of a blocking bet?) - also remember this is LIVE where most players have no concept of how big the pot is, meaning that this bet has more significance to it than it would online

When I add it up I get $608 in the pot, and $220 to call. so about 2.75:1. So you only have to have the best hand about 30% of the time.

If you look at the hand again, your flop bet seems weak $35 into an $83 pot. So most kings will call you some 7s will call, and I think you will get floated a decent amount of the time. So realistically his range on the flop is huge. I think a set of 2s or 7s will raise this flop. You are playing deepstacked 3 handed, and with a flush draw out there it makes sense to protect a set. the only set that would likley flat would be kkk because its unlikley anyone else has a K so it would kill thier action pretty quick.

The turn Td, and you bet $100 which I think is fine. you want value out of the hand and 50% of pot is a fine line to take. When we consider the players range to call on the flop you probably fold out the 7, or some mid pocket pairs that he might have floated you with. Other potential floats would likely included an Ax. If its the Ad he could potentially call again with the nut draw. Kx hands say KxQd would definetly be calling you down with the Qd. So on the turn his range is still pretty wide with Kx, K with the Qd Jd,Kx, Adx (would definetly include Ad7x) and XdXd. At this point I think a set would have to raise as they need to find out where they are, and they dont want a 4th diamond falling completely killing thier hand (I think a set wouldve lead out at you on the turn) So it fairly unlikely he has a set at this point.

The river is the 2s, which doesnt really change things much as I doubt he has a FH here often, so the only hand that beats us is a higher flush.With all of the hands we have listed on the turn as possible hands there a quite a few that are turning thier hands into bluffs (single diamonds hands, and Kx where the only hands that call us beat us.) I really dont like his hand because he is turning it into a bluff, and because I think it is likely you would bet a similar amount on the river. If he really thought it through if you have air your not calling the river so he gets no value out of betting, but if you have air or the nuts you are likely to bet the river getting him to showdown as cheaply as he can. So I think his river bet is horrible.

Shit I typed a minibook... with all that said i think his range on the river is still pretty wide with alot of K hands, alot of air, occasionally a FH, and occasionally a Flush. You have to remember that all of the hands that he knows is losing he has to bet or give up the pot, So missed draws he is betting a large amount of the time. IMO he is still wide enough to be calling the $220 as I think that the ranges listed above make up for over 30% of his hands. I dont think its hugely over 30%, so its a marginal call and prolly is only slightly +ev, but definetly +ev.

Its an interesting hand for sure, in the future you should leave the conclusion out, i think you would see alot of interesting discussion and thought processes people go thru..

 

Originally Posted by bonflizubi

just me or is the fact that he bet out quickly tell you something here? if had the bigger flush or the rare boat... I'd expect him to take some time thinking about how much to bet.

assuming it translates from online to live, that quick bet smells weak as shit to me. sort of like a blocker of sorts. If you were any deeper I would have been tempted to insta-shove on that guy with the now paired board. Don't know if you are deep enough to get a fold here ever....

this is very true. especially with the board pairing. any hand is going to think what to bet... I played a tourney where I noticed a guy do this early on in the tourney when i flopped the nuts with KJ on an AQT board, I bet and he insta shoved QJ (K on the river for the chop). Later in the tourney we get in a big pot on an A97hh, turn2, river 9. The river I check, he insta shoved, and snap called flipped over my weak ace and asked if he missed his heart... that was the first live tell I had when I was in vegas this summer. Timing tells are the best.

t mac. whats your face book. i grind up at tulalip all the time and work in woo town or pm or something and ill give you my number

folding the river is absolutely horrible

Never folding the river there....also hate the show.

 

Originally Posted by MakeMeMaster

folding the river is absolutely horrible

So really the title should be WOW.......just WOW @ how bad random online players are when they play live cash

lol

I can't imagine EVER bet/folding the turn or folding the river. Bet/call turn, call river EASY.

 

Originally Posted by poisoneye1986

i think the PF raise is questionable when $25 has no FE to it.

Switching it up in position is fine... C-Betting the flop is fine... Nailing your money card on the turn and betting is also correct... Folding on the river to a 1/3 size pot bet against random and showing how terrible it was after calling out said player for being terrible... Priceless...

I think it is quite obvious that you have a lot to learn. I always find it amusing when online players talk how bad live players are and vice versa. Many players do both now and there is a huge overlap. Hell, he probably typed the same post and flamed you for showing the fold and said "how bad live players are". I agree with the previous post. Your play was deceptive and it worked (with the exception of your terribly undersized bets). That was your first mistake.

I agree with the last post in that you have a deceptive hand and hit your money card. How do you respond? You "small bet" the turn and fold the river to a bet. That is about the worst line I have ever seen. He never shows up with a FH there b/c of the diamonds on board. He would raise the turn. How you do not call that river bet is beyond me. How you have the "balls" to type how bad he played is even worse. You were outplayed and the majority of terrible online/ live players make the call there correctly.

He definitely bet for value as your most likely holding is 1)air or 2) weaker king (like KJ). It is a blocker bet in that he didn't have to make a call for $800, etc if you hit your flush. I would say he played the hand pretty well. If you make a big re-raise on the river, he can get away.

I meant raise the flop not turn BTW if he had a set. Wow, how bad you played this hand it hurts actually.