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A WTF River spot deep in 5r

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  1. Jukess Jukess is offline

    Posts: 60
    Joined: Jun 09

    May 5th, 2010 (5/5/2010 2:31pm)

    <table id="post18684496" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="7" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td id="td_post_18684496">pokerstars Game #43625700404: Tournament #309010752, $5.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XVIII (2000/4000) - 2010/05/04 20:04:56 PT [2010/05/04 23:04:56 ET]
    Table '309010752 246' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
    Seat 1: langace66 (203930 in chips)
    Seat 2: 11_SKOAL_11 (165018 in chips)
    Seat 3: STPAggressiv (182702 in chips)
    Seat 4: ArmyOfLovers (122352 in chips)
    Seat 5: jonito21 (367194 in chips)
    Seat 6: Matty Jukes (270712 in chips)
    Seat 7: Shlune (80624 in chips)
    Seat 8: PAIRFOURS (113764 in chips)
    Seat 9: filgaite (225038 in chips)
    langace66: posts the ante 400
    11_SKOAL_11: posts the ante 400
    STPAggressiv: posts the ante 400
    ArmyOfLovers: posts the ante 400
    jonito21: posts the ante 400
    Matty Jukes: posts the ante 400
    Shlune: posts the ante 400
    PAIRFOURS: posts the ante 400
    filgaite: posts the ante 400
    Shlune: posts small blind 2000
    PAIRFOURS: posts big blind 4000
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Matty Jukes [Th Qs]
    filgaite: folds
    langace66: folds
    11_SKOAL_11: folds
    STPAggressiv: folds
    ArmyOfLovers: folds
    jonito21: raises 5999 to 9999
    Matty Jukes: calls 9999
    Shlune: folds
    PAIRFOURS: folds
    *** FLOP *** [8d 7c Ts]
    jonito21: bets 13259
    Matty Jukes: raises 22996 to 36255
    jonito21: calls 22996
    *** TURN *** [8d 7c Ts] [Qh]
    jonito21: checks
    Matty Jukes: bets 69750
    jonito21: calls 69750
    *** RIVER *** [8d 7c Ts Qh] [Kc]
    jonito21: bets 154308
    langace66 said, "call"
    Matty Jukes ????
    </td></tr><tr><td> </td><td align="right"></td></tr></tbody></table>
  2. okse54 okse54 is offline

    New York, NY
    United States

    Posts: 3,692
    Joined: Nov 07

    May 5th, 2010 (5/5/2010 2:35pm) in reply to Jukess

     
    Originally Posted by Jukess View Post

    Villain had been opening tons of hands and was folding to all three bets,

    good flat imo

    EDIT: why r there things at the bottom of ur post that are not at the bottom of others
     
  3. Jukess Jukess is offline

    Posts: 60
    Joined: Jun 09

    May 5th, 2010 (5/5/2010 2:42pm) in reply to okse54

    Any thoughts on the hand PAL?
    Thread Starter
  4. s.l. halper s.l. halper is offline

    Garwood, NJ
    United States

    Posts: 1,017
    Joined: Aug 06

    May 5th, 2010 (5/5/2010 3:42pm) in reply to Jukess

    Flatting pre-flop is a "feel" play here. I don't see any problem mixing in a flat IP with a hand like this because it flops well, you can hit and get described villain to barrel worse for a few streets. I would 3-bet here to take it down a decent % of the time but flatting is perfectly fine with these stacks so long as you have a solid plan.

    Theeeen you raise the flop, which totally defeats the purpose of flatting hands like this. You stop villain from barreling worse hands and bluffs and you only get flats from either better hands or hands with some value that can improve, and if he raises you are very rarely getting it in good. I would just flat and if you want to juice the pot, do it on the turn (if you improve or not).

    That being said, you did improve on the turn and have to bet it and probably go with it. His flat is suspicious but you are still ahead of some of his value range. Unfortunately, your flop raise likely took his air out of the equation so you should be worried.

    The river card sucks big time. It improves a decent range of his opens where his hand had worse value on the flop and doesn't really hurt him much because he knows you have value but are really unlikely to improve your flop raising range with that card. You are now officially owned. His bluffs should be long gone and he either has had you from the jump or is now better and he should know it. I think you have to fold now despite getting a good price to call.

    I would flat flop then raise the turn with the intention of getting it in. Sometimes villain has you but I think you get called with worse OTT here a decent % of the time. However, with this river you might end up in the same spot anyway if he flats the turn, and you would likely be facing the same bet, so my line is certainly not foolproof. I just think it takes things down OTT a decent % of the time and at least gets your money in well if he ships the turn.
     
  5. fly44 fly44 is offline

    United States

    Posts: 2,388
    Joined: May 08

    May 5th, 2010 (5/5/2010 3:57pm) in reply to s.l. halper

     
    Originally Posted by s.l. halper View Post

    Flatting pre-flop is a "feel" play here. I don't see any problem mixing in a flat IP with a hand like this because it flops well, you can hit and get described villain to barrel worse for a few streets. I would 3-bet here to take it down a decent % of the time but flatting is perfectly fine with these stacks so long as you have a solid plan.

    Theeeen you raise the flop, which totally defeats the purpose of flatting hands like this. You stop villain from barreling worse hands and bluffs and you only get flats from either better hands or hands with some value that can improve, and if he raises you are very rarely getting it in good. I would just flat and if you want to juice the pot, do it on the turn (if you improve or not).

    That being said, you did improve on the turn and have to bet it and probably go with it. His flat is suspicious but you are still ahead of some of his value range. Unfortunately, your flop raise likely took his air out of the equation so you should be worried.

    The river card sucks big time. It improves a decent range of his opens where his hand had worse value on the flop and doesn't really hurt him much because he knows you have value but are really unlikely to improve your flop raising range with that card. You are now officially owned. His bluffs should be long gone and he either has had you from the jump or is now better and he should know it. I think you have to fold now despite getting a good price to call.

    I would flat flop then raise the turn with the intention of getting it in. Sometimes villain has you but I think you get called with worse OTT here a decent % of the time. However, with this river you might end up in the same spot anyway if he flats the turn, and you would likely be facing the same bet, so my line is certainly not foolproof. I just think it takes things down OTT a decent % of the time and at least gets your money in well if he ships the turn.

    I am fine with the flat pre here as long as you bluff when you miss a high % of the time.

    I agree 100% that raising the flop is bad. It really only gets you in trouble and wastes all the value of your hand. Yes you protect against somethings, but I hate the raise.

    But on the turn I am not going to raise a bet unless I improve (which we did, so if he barrels the turn I raise).

    As played on the river, nothing really makes sense. The only thing you really beat is AK if he is just terrrrrrrible, but I doubt it so I think you need to fold.
    521 1
  6. Jukess Jukess is offline

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    Joined: Jun 09

    May 6th, 2010 (5/6/2010 2:19pm) in reply to fly44

    Thank you both for the responses...Well I guess I should of mentioned that he had been opening almost every other hand, So my thought process is that when i flop top pair in position on a drawy board I figure he has a wide range of hands and my raise on the flop takes it down immediately. Against a some what of a tighter player I flat flop and evaluate turn, but how do you guys feel about the raise vs. the villain who is liable to have a wide range of hands?

    BTW did ya ship it fly?
    Thread Starter
  7. rochustler rochustler is offline

    Rochester, NY
    United States

    Posts: 489
    Joined: Apr 06

    May 6th, 2010 (5/6/2010 2:22pm) in reply to Jukess

    As others said, really dislike the flop raise.

    As played I probably call and beat his K9 that he does not know is a bluff.
     
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