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WWYD On The Turn Here

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  1. RyJS RyJS is offline

    Pittsburgh, PA
    United States

    Posts: 775
    Joined: Oct 07

    Oct 5th, 2011 (10/5/2011 6:43am)

    No reads, moved to the table maybe 20 hands before this. Fairly standard play so far.

    Hand#27399B7EE6000919 - $2,000 Guaranteed - R&A T10190566 -- Table 20 -- 40/200/400 NL Hold'em -- 2011/10/05 - 01:38:50
    Seat 1: dan3***1 (10,790 in chips)
    Seat 2: rubi***2 (8,285 in chips)
    Seat 3: Prae***3 (17,330 in chips)
    Seat 4: UhOhSpaghett (13,449 in chips)
    Seat 5: 1TIM***5 (13,137 in chips) DEALER
    Seat 6: jetx***6 (6,985 in chips)
    Seat 7: poig***7 (31,655 in chips)
    Seat 8: cody***8 (3,825 in chips)
    Seat 10: oske***10 (11,665 in chips)
    dan3***1: posts ante of 40
    rubi***2: posts ante of 40
    Prae***3: posts ante of 40
    UhOhSpaghett: posts ante of 40
    1TIM***5: posts ante of 40
    jetx***6: posts ante of 40
    poig***7: posts ante of 40
    cody***8: posts ante of 40
    dano***: posts ante of 40
    oske***10: posts ante of 40
    jetx***6: posts small blind 200
    poig***7: posts big blind 400
    Dealt to UhOhSpaghett [Th,Ks]
    cody***8: folds
    dano***: folds
    oske***10: folds
    dan3***1: folds
    rubi***2: folds
    Prae***3: folds
    UhOhSpaghett: raises to 950
    1TIM***5: folds
    jetx***6: folds
    poig***7: calls 550
    *** FLOP *** [Kd,3d,9h]
    poig***7: checks
    UhOhSpaghett: bets 1,250
    poig***7: calls 1,250
    *** TURN *** [2h]
    poig***7: bets 2,500
    UhOhSpaghett: ????
    Edited By: RyJS Oct 5th, 2011 at 06:44 AM
  2. Jason2890 Jason2890 is offline plays plo for overlays

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    Oct 5th, 2011 (10/5/2011 6:56am) in reply to RyJS

    That's pretty rough. His sizing sets him up perfectly to put you all in on the river. Since you have pretty much no reads or history, I can't see him semi-bluffing here with a straight/flush draw too often, more than likely he has a hand he is protecting against the draws on board. I'd expect to see him show up with at least KQ here, possibly even a set. Fold seems good here, but if you intend to continue this hand I suggest shoving rather than flat calling.
  3. Trembath29 Trembath29 is offline

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    Oct 5th, 2011 (10/5/2011 9:06am) in reply to RyJS

    Not so sure I agree with Jason and RyJS that calling is the worst option here.

    I don't think it's clear as day that we're beaten here. There are a lot of draws and pair/draw combos that villain can have, and maybe some random mid pairs / bluffs that have chosen the c/c flop lead turn route to play back at a late position raise+ c-bet.

    Pretty much every hand in villain's range that we're beating, he will fold if we jam the turn. Calling keeps all of that range in the hand and gives him the chance to fire it off on the river.

    I think a spot like this is really read-dependent so in this case I'd probably just tank/fold on the turn. But I think jamming is worse than calling here... if we're ahead, we're a big favourite to still be ahead on the river, so calling turn and then care-evaluating the river seems a better choice to me than piling it in here.
  4. RyJS RyJS is offline

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    Oct 5th, 2011 (10/5/2011 8:37pm) in reply to Trembath29

     
    Originally Posted by Trembath29 View Post

    Not so sure I agree with Jason and RyJS that calling is the worst option here.

    I don't think it's clear as day that we're beaten here. There are a lot of draws and pair/draw combos that villain can have, and maybe some random mid pairs / bluffs that have chosen the c/c flop lead turn route to play back at a late position raise+ c-bet.

    Pretty much every hand in villain's range that we're beating, he will fold if we jam the turn. Calling keeps all of that range in the hand and gives him the chance to fire it off on the river.

    I think a spot like this is really read-dependent so in this case I'd probably just tank/fold on the turn. But I think jamming is worse than calling here... if we're ahead, we're a big favourite to still be ahead on the river, so calling turn and then care-evaluating the river seems a better choice to me than piling it in here.

    Makes sense, the only thing I'd be worried about flatting here is like Jason said, the sizing sets him up to open jam the river quite a bit of the time. There's quite a few combo draws in his range and there's alot of scare cards that are going to hit this river that make it a perfect spot for him to jam any card that comes. That added with the fact that KQ, K9, KJ already have us beat which I think villain shows up with a fair amount of the time and also 99 or 33 potentially takes this line to protect their hand after the turn puts two flush draws/straight draws out.
    Thread Starter
  5. MikeBucks MikeBucks is offline

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    Oct 6th, 2011 (10/6/2011 1:28am) in reply to RyJS

     
    Originally Posted by RyJS View Post

    Makes sense, the only thing I'd be worried about flatting here is like Jason said, the sizing sets him up to open jam the river quite a bit of the time. There's quite a few combo draws in his range and there's alot of scare cards that are going to hit this river that make it a perfect spot for him to jam any card that comes. That added with the fact that KQ, K9, KJ already have us beat which I think villain shows up with a fair amount of the time and also 99 or 33 potentially takes this line to protect their hand after the turn puts two flush draws/straight draws out.

    I don't think that KQ, K9 or KJ is going to flat the flop on a drawy board and then lead on a turn card that completes flushes. That doesn't make sense. They're much more likely to raise the flop with those hands. Sometimes they'll show up with a flush here, but you're gonna be ahead way more often here. I'm calling the turn and calling pretty much any river. If the river gets checked, I'm betting for value.
     
  6. RyJS RyJS is offline

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    Oct 6th, 2011 (10/6/2011 4:42am) in reply to MikeBucks

    I ended up jamming the turn. Villain folded. So it worked out well enough but this is kind of what I was wondering, if I missed out on value or if I should'ved just folded. After I felt as though I basically just pushed buttons and lucked out. Looking back on it shortly after when I was going over HH's I thought I probably should usually just fold there cause I'm really not comfortable flatting the turn lead and then calling any jam on the river. Obviously if it's a complete blank or a K on the river I feel very good about calling a shove. But my thought when I jammed was that he was leading with either a flush or a combo draw which I think is what most people would lead the turn with there and I was happy to just take the pot there.

    Thanks for the input guys.
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  7. Jason2890 Jason2890 is offline plays plo for overlays

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    Oct 6th, 2011 (10/6/2011 6:32am) in reply to MikeBucks

     
    Originally Posted by MikeBucks View Post

    I don't think that KQ, K9 or KJ is going to flat the flop on a drawy board and then lead on a turn card that completes flushes. That doesn't make sense. They're much more likely to raise the flop with those hands. Sometimes they'll show up with a flush here, but you're gonna be ahead way more often here. I'm calling the turn and calling pretty much any river. If the river gets checked, I'm betting for value.

    Read the hand history again. The turn didn't complete any flushes. It put a second flush draw out there. It's quite feasible that villain is now leading out to protect against possible flush draws that the hero may be on.
  8. MikeBucks MikeBucks is offline

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    Oct 6th, 2011 (10/6/2011 6:06pm) in reply to Jason2890

     
    Originally Posted by Jason2890 View Post

    Read the hand history again. The turn didn't complete any flushes. It put a second flush draw out there. It's quite feasible that villain is now leading out to protect against possible flush draws that the hero may be on.

    Oops, misread the hh. My reasoning for KQ, KJ, and K9 not being as likely because of flatting on a drawy flop is the same. It's pretty likey the villain picked up a draw on the turn. But because I thought we had the single flush draw and now there are two flush draws and we don't have any, I like jamming the turn instead of flatting.
     
  9. double_kyan double_kyan is offline

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    Oct 6th, 2011 (10/6/2011 7:44pm) in reply to MikeBucks

    i would call this 2500 np, u might have simply created action from him thru your turn check....which equals getting broke off, nicely...i say call turn and check call river.......... or check raise turn , calling any shove...
    Edited By: double_kyan Oct 6th, 2011 at 07:50 PM
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  10. RyJS RyJS is offline

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    Oct 7th, 2011 (10/7/2011 3:25am) in reply to double_kyan

     
    Originally Posted by double_kyan View Post

    i would call this 2500 np, u might have simply created action from him thru your turn check....which equals getting broke off, nicely...i say call turn and check call river.......... or check raise turn , calling any shove...

    I didn't check the turn. I raised preflop. He flatted from the bb. He checked the flop. I cbet. He flats. He then leads into me on the turn.. I never checked at any point in this hand.
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  11. Scarypooper Scarypooper is offline

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    Oct 7th, 2011 (10/7/2011 7:34am) in reply to RyJS

    Jamming / folding both seem really bad so I call and re-evaluate the river.
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  12. Flopnuts1 Flopnuts1 is offline

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    Oct 7th, 2011 (10/7/2011 7:23pm) in reply to Scarypooper

     
    Originally Posted by Scarypooper View Post

    Jamming / folding both seem really bad so I call and re-evaluate the river.

    I agree jamming is bad and don't love folding. But how are you ranging him here? KQ, KJ, sets, FDs? Q10, J10 maybe?
  13. Jason2890 Jason2890 is offline plays plo for overlays

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    Oct 8th, 2011 (10/8/2011 6:00am) in reply to Flopnuts1

    Is jamming on a drawy board like this really that bad on the turn? It's a small stakes tournament. If villain has some sort of combo draw, he's probably still calling on the turn when he may otherwise give up if he bricks on the river. He may also put OP on a draw and call with a marginal holding that we beat like some sort of second pair type hand.

    What do you do if he continues on a broadway card river? Or any heart or diamond? I don't like simply calling on the river because there are so many scare cards that can come up on the river that we can't call bets on.
  14. Sagacious Man Sagacious Man is offline

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    Oct 8th, 2011 (10/8/2011 6:42am) in reply to Jason2890

    His line looks weird, I think call and re-evaluate also. I doubt he has a draw, but he might feel he has lost control of the pot because he checked flop, and he might be hoping the river goes check/check by showing strength on the turn.
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