I was kind of confused as to what he could've been calling with on the flop and turn. I felt like this river might have somehow been part of his range. Are you betting this river (if so, how much?), or checking behind? Ghost texted below, try not to peek?Edited By: nw25th Sep 29th, 2011 at 01:26 PM
pokerstars Game #68219942641: Tournament #540010244, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2011/09/29 21:07:33 JST [2011/09/29 8:07:33 ET]
Table '540010244 21' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Howardo29 (2730 in chips)
Seat 2: gerrywillie (3558 in chips)
Seat 3: Automagical (3383 in chips)
Seat 4: booboochanel (3525 in chips)
Seat 5: Wertuxai2011 (5426 in chips)
Seat 6: Glykodin174 (4185 in chips)
Seat 7: Balis10 (8682 in chips)
Seat 8: nw25th (2970 in chips)
Seat 9: shangai11 (550 in chips) is sitting out
Glykodin174: posts small blind 50
Balis10: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to nw25th [Ks As]
nw25th: raises 150 to 250
Wertuxai2011 has timed out
Wertuxai2011 is sitting out
Wertuxai2011 has returned
Balis10: calls 150
*** FLOP *** [Kh 9c 3d]
nw25th: bets 320
Balis10: calls 320
*** TURN *** [Kh 9c 3d] [Ad]
nw25th: bets 400
Balis10: calls 400
*** RIVER *** [Kh 9c 3d Ad] [9d]
Reason: some reason I can't make results white
i bet a lil more on the turn, and i def bet the river,he checked it and its possible he has Kx or Ax i am betting here, the pot is almost 2k and i want too get smthn i bet 1k too 1400, too me checkn out means tht u will be at less thn 10 bb if he was unbelievably trapping u and wins the pot ,so therefore i'd rather assume my hand is best and maximize what i can extract from him
I am almost always checking back here. Betting at this stage of tournament opens the door to put you in a bad RR spot, most competant players are not hero calling unless your beat.
Call me nifty but I feel the value of betting at is offset by the times your beat and or folding.
Deeperstacked and deeper in tourney I feel can bet for value.
Guess I might've missed a bet. I checked behind, he showed KJo. Don't know if I would've gotten paid on a river bet. THANKS!
definitely definitely bet...sure, he has a 9 sometimes, but he has KQ or Ax often enough to make this profitable. if he raises, it's an easy fold. bet big and expect to get paid off quite a bit
not so sure about the folding part if villian raises gags ...........hes already being told too bet big , bet folding seems like suicide
You absolutely have to bet here at these stakes. You will almost never be check-raised with a worse hand, (probably gona be a 9 or running diamonds), and you're almost always getting value out of Kx or Ax, even on the river. People don't fold pairs, especially not random BB flatters in $11 freezeouts.Edited By: Odyssey77 Oct 1st, 2011 at 12:11 AM
Anyone else feel as though a bigger bet on the turn could've led to a near pot sized jam on the river? Personally this is a spot where I used to value a lot, but with a LAG image, I started to realize I can shove these rivers and get called by Ax or Kx all day at these stakes. If you are betting more than 700 on the turn (which I def would), then you are setup for a jam quite nicely.
Part of the reason I like this line is because your villain is relatively deep stacked, and it would seem quite spewy too (personally I hate his flat, and I think KJo is a fold for most people OOP). Most players who flat these types of hands don't like to take a 9k stack in this spot and call two barrels then fold to a river shove.
dunno why u would ever check behind ever? he hasnt showing one bit of strength in the hand what so ever ... now n again he'll pop up with some stupid hand / trap that beats u but no where near enough for it not to be way profitable to bet ..... most of the time there he should have the hand he has ... most hand that makes sense and most of the time it is . bet that shittt
damn gags i'm actually trippn that u would fold here, so now i want too know if my thinking seems flawed here. hero bets 250 ,320,400=970, that leaves 2000k ,putting ourselves in this same predicament as the hero you are sayn bet big ,which sounds good too me as well,i told the OP 1k-1400 ,you say bet big so i am curious what amount is considered big, just contemplating any fold too any raise is killing me,its interesting too know why u say ez fold here. i hope u respond too this
lol Ive played alot of 11 tournaments and the players are bad and call off light. Def bet more turn like 600 so your overshove river doesnt look so huge. To the people saying b/f riv are wrong because you should be sizing turn to shove river because if the villians calling such a horrid turn then he def has a medium strength hand and with everyone these days overbetting light these are spots that are super easy. If he calls turn then im 100% shoving any river for total val. If he randomly holds on with a weird 9 then w/e but the times he calls with a weaker hand definetly outways the times he randomly has a 9 here which are pretty much never if he's calling a turn bet.
meh, looking back at stacks, idk, i mean, it's sort of awkward cause our stack isn't that deep. ther'es 1900 in the pot and we have like 1900 behind.so i guess we could just shove, i just feel like his range is pretty weak and the A might actually scare him a bit so i'd rather just bet like 900 or w/e. if we have like 2500 or 3k behind on the river then i would def just bet 1100 and fold to a shove, and be real convinced that he had me beat if he shovesEdited By: Gags30 Oct 5th, 2011 at 01:05 AM
A V-bet on the river is slightly the SAFER line to take here I think.Edited By: Dwain Phoenix Oct 5th, 2011 at 04:31 AM
His call on the flop I'm putting him on a out kicked king (KQ or worse) or some stupid draw call like QT or JT. Unless he hit a nine looking for turn info.
The Turn with the A followed by his call narrows his range to either a bad call with the 2nd pair (K whattever) unless it makes a flush draw with the Kd Xd or an even worse call with the gut shot still. But I still think a Top pair (Kd)+flush draw or a gutshot+flush draw or even any 9 would make a play here and he didnt.
The river I feel by the way the hand is played is pretty safe for you, so its all up to whether he has an out kicked King, a missed draw, or got lucky with a third 9 or a backdoor flush.
If you v-bet he either makes a bad call out kicked, or folds the missed draw....and if he check raises you are almost committed anyways and were just out played or coolered if he has trips, a boat, or a flush. gg
Reason: turn play
When he calls the flop I'm basically putting him on Kx, 9x, and pairs that he was either set mining with, or maybe not crazy about 3b calling 30bb with (55-JJ), guess you could put a random gutterball in there too, but def not a big part of it.Edited By: TheVillageGrinder Oct 5th, 2011 at 01:44 PM
So while I agree that the turn sizing is kinda goofy, it could just be small enough to convince the villian that his Kx is still good and that the hero in the hand was just putting in some kind of lame/weak bluff to represent the obv scare card.
My question, to those who are recommending a larger turn bet, what exactly do we feel we will be getting value from in that spot? Are you thinking that the villian still calls a bet of like 600-800 into 1200 on the turn with most Kx, 9, third pair, a lame draw? I mean ppl, esp at this level, are rarely putting in big bluffs on the turn on this kind of board. Not saying it doesn't happen. However, I have to belive any kind of big turn bet here, to this villian, screams strength.
Might we not be better checking this turn and going for big value on the river where many players might consider making a bluff when checked to in that spot?
Pretty small % of the time he has a 9 here and I'm never putting him on diamonds. Plus if he does have a 9 isn't he check raising the turn like almost always? Kx seems like the most logical holding imo.
agree with some of what villagegrinder said. i think people saying to bet bigger/a lot bigger on turn are being result oriented or just aren't playing it optimally. i mean, this board is still pretty dry on the turn and we've basically got the nuts, and the Ace is potentially a big action killer for us. betting smaller on turn allows hero to get value more often out of Kx and can also induce an occasional bluff from villain when he makes a bad flop peel with stuff like QJ/QT/JT (or it can cause him to peel again with one of those hands when he obv doesn't have the right price to do so, even when our turn bet is 400 or w/e).
so ya, betting bigger on the turn to jam river is fine if we expect to get 3 streets of (big) value from villain often enough, but that seems pretty unlikely given the turn card and his range. i'd rather bet something like 300/400/700, or occasionally 300/check/800 (or if for some reason we think Ax is a big part of his range by the river, we can just go 300/400/pot size jam... again tho, seems unlikely).
anyway, as played you've got 1 psb left. if you think he's got an Ace a lot or is the type of player that just isn't going to fold ever once he flops top pair, then bet big or just jam. if you think Kx is more likely, just bet like 1/4 to 1/3 pot.
Everything you've said stays true if we bet bigger and I don't think most randoms in an $11 tourney are folding a king to a 550-650 bet on the turn and we're rarely getting a 9 to put more chips in the pot anyways. Plus we still have the option of betting small on the river if we want but it makes jamming a lot easier.
RK-mad respect for your thought process overall but, in this instance, I def think its more likely that a random 11dolla mtt'er folds a K (esp a weak one) to double barrel action from us on this board.
I actually think it would be more likely that we get called down from a player that we know to be on a higher level of thought process cause, they're gonna know (and perhaps they're gonna know that we know) that the A is a perfect card to barrel at, and figure that their K is good there a lot of time.
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