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You have 77 in the small blind

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  1. threebanger threebanger is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 2:59pm)

    Middle of a 1000+ player $10 nl tourney, a little less than half the field left. Blinds are 200/400, you have 8000. An active player (tries to open or enter about 4 pots per orbit) in middle position, with about 13000, raises to 1200. Everyone folds to you, with only the bb and the original raiser left to act. What do you do?

    I'll see how some of you would play it before I divulge what I did.
  2. TheMayor TheMayor is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 3:05pm) in reply to threebanger

    Is he literally opening 4 pots per orbit? Or did he open 4 pots in the last orbit?

    If he's literally a 40+ vpip and 25+ pfr which are what his stats would be if he's opening that much, i'm probably repopping to 4k and pushing any flop without an A on it if called.
  3. threebanger threebanger is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 3:09pm) in reply to TheMayor

    From what I noticed, opening 2 per and calling about 2 others. Overall seems very active. Your numbers may be close but I don't use pokertracker so I can't say for sure if they are.
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  4. lordxixor101 lordxixor101 is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 3:09pm) in reply to threebanger

    Well, how is he playing when he's opening too? I'm assuming you don't have that many orbits with him, even over the past 2 orbits, he could have had some good hands. Also, how is hie playing post flop. Is he shutting down quickly, or is he betting out a lot. Is he ever showing?

    I just worry that this could be a guy who is slightly overplaying, but ran hot too. But, let's assume you don't know anything. 4 times an orbit, every orbit, you have to repop here. You are way ahead of his range, probably winning this hand 2 out of every 3 times at this point. You have to stay agressive, c-betting any flop. The problem is obvioulsy if you get 3 overs, you have to shut down pretty quick.

    Overall, you really want to take this down preflop, if possible.
  5. threebanger threebanger is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 3:12pm) in reply to lordxixor101

    I'd been at the table long enough to see him win a couple of races with a couple of marginal calls. The hands he had shown weren't terrible, but nothing to write home about either. Nothing about this guy says he plays tight.
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  6. trouble trouble is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 3:14pm) in reply to threebanger

    How has the table been dealing with him? Has he been reshoved on? If so, how did he react? If he's shown he's capable of raising 3x and laying it down, then...

    s-h-o-v-e

    or Mayor's plan raise to ~4000/call shove/shove any flop
  7. threebanger threebanger is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 3:17pm) in reply to trouble

    I'd seen him shove on at least one such reraise and win a race with something like AJ>99.
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  8. junsie junsie is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 3:19pm) in reply to threebanger

    is there any use in "trapping" with the 77 against this opponent? I'm saying flat call pre-flop, flop comes low, check, he c-bets, you shove? or is it just better to avoid the flop altogether b/c if the flop comes high you're shutting down and pop him preflop OOP?
  9. threebanger threebanger is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 3:28pm) in reply to threebanger

    Here's what I did: I repopped it to 3600. BB gets out, and the intial raiser shoves. I guess he thought I was leaving myself 4400 in case he did that and I was making some kind of play. Well, based on earlier action, and considering my shrinking M, I called the all in. Turns out he has KQ (all hunches correct) but a Q on the turn and gg to me.

    This was 2 months ago and I have all but quit MTTs after this experience (and others like it). Analyzing this hand, I think shoving on this particular opponent was a far better option, but that is hindsight of course. Does he gamble with KQ for more than half his stack, no probably not even he would. But I guess I gave him too much credit for even considering making that move after my reraise.

    I guess the question is, which is the the bigger leak? Me for not pushing, or me for not even considering re-restealing plays like he thought he was putting on me? I've gotta believe my mindset is what is hindering me in spots like this, since I seem to chip up pretty easily until points like this in MTTs.

    Thanks for the comments and those to come. I'm trying to learn.
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  10. Not In Class Not In Class is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 3:28pm) in reply to junsie

    i think the previous posters are correct, you want to try to take this down pre-flop. a flat call/stop n go attempt is probably -EV against his 2 random cards, because he likely has 2 overs. at the very least you need to raise it to 4k and then shove any flop.....but if you just flat call then he is able to keep his momentum in the hand, plus he has position on you
    if you want to see 5 cards for stacks with 77, your best bet is to get it in pre-flop. he'll sniff out the stop n go, i'd think
  11. pnkranger pnkranger is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 3:29pm) in reply to junsie

    is folding an option?

    While your stack size dictates a good time to re-shove against a good player, I think I prefer folding against your villain

    I don't like 3-betting a guy who has shown he'll call down light when I'm holding 44-77 (even 88). Against his range you are probably -ev...you likely have little fold equity because he's shown he will call down with a broad range of hands you are racing or way behind. I doubt highly he calls here with a hand that you dominate. Of the hands that might call you A9+, 88+ maybe: QK or JK suited.

    Calling is not an option.

    I don't like re-raising to 4,000 and then pushing flop. What happens if AKQ falls? Still push? Or throw half your stack out there and then fold? Push or fold time after a raise.
  12. TheMayor TheMayor is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 3:30pm) in reply to threebanger

    You were pot comitted when you reraised him, so i think if he's willing to 4bet allin he's willing to call your push. Unless he's stupid enough to think that you are going to reraise him and fold getting >3:1 against his donkey-wide range...which he probably is if he's making that play with KQ.

    Unlucky. I think you played it fine.
  13. pnkranger pnkranger is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 3:33pm) in reply to TheMayor

    I think the big question here is: why are you trying to make a donkey lay down a hand? If he called 3600, he's probably calling all in. Please read my post above.
  14. threebanger threebanger is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 3:38pm) in reply to pnkranger

    I did read your post, and it's great stuff. I guess I never considered folding here because his range was so wide. Looking back I do think he would've folded if I push my entire 8k out there, but who knows. Maybe that's the leak, that folding never even occurred to me there.
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  15. pnkranger pnkranger is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 3:39pm) in reply to threebanger

    who knows...i might be wrong. But i probably push on a good player in that position more often than a donkey, simply because 77 has so little showdown value against the bulk of hands a donkey might call with. The lack of fold equity by just re-raising really makes your hand a coin flip or worse every time.

    So really pushing and folding are both good choices. Without more information, I would probably fold and wait for a better spot to get my chips in.
  16. threebanger threebanger is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 3:44pm) in reply to pnkranger

    As to the flat-call option, I think I ruled that one out because my stack was starting to get short. Not a great time to be throwing almost 1/5 of my stack ($1200) at making a set, which is probably the only way I can continue with the hand after the flop if I play it that way.
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  17. threebanger threebanger is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 3:48pm) in reply to TheMayor

    Thx Mayor. I think the play I made (and that you basically described in your first post) is fine with a better opponent, but besides being unlucky I think I gave this player an avenue to win the pot, when pushing might've solved the whole problem for me....on this hand anyway.
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  18. ThereIsNo ThereIsNo is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 4:08pm) in reply to threebanger

    You are obv ahead oh his range if he is opening that much, I disagree w/ rasing to 3600 or 4000 preflop. You are not really wanting to induce a 4 bet and "trap" with 77. If he cold calls and the flop comes 2 or 3 broadway cards you've just put 50% of your stack in preflop oop and you can't call a bet. The only play that is +EV here is a shove. Folding is probaly neutral EV. If you had 8s here i think folding would be -EV.

    Steve
  19. trouble trouble is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 4:14pm) in reply to ThereIsNo

    I don't think raise to 4000 is to induce a 4bet, it just looks stronger than straight shoving...there is no trap there...obv with half our stack in the middle we're playing the hand to the end. IF he cold calls (which seems unlikely), then we act first from the sb and are shoving any flop.

    You really think there's much of an EV difference in 77 v. 88 against a loose opponent?
  20. threebanger threebanger is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 4:16pm) in reply to ThereIsNo

    Yeah I'm starting to see I was trying to put a little bit of FPS on this guy. Shove or fold here. I see the light.
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  21. threebanger threebanger is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 4:18pm) in reply to trouble

    Trouble, I agree with you, the reraise to 4k does look stronger than the shove...but only to a decent player. I think that makes the reraise against this particular player a bad play, although I was convinced it was correct at first. I gave him too much credit.

    For the record, I was playing my normal tight style and had not shown any weak holdings, not that he would've noticed anyway.
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  22. Sokpuppet7 Sokpuppet7 is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 4:21pm) in reply to trouble

    Ok, first of all, plz dont ever flat call here... You're essentially set mining if you do and you don't have the implied odds to set-mine. Your stack just isnt big enough... You dont want to re-raise to 3600-4000ish because you're committing half your stack to the pot and folding to a board of all overs... There are only 2 good plays here:

    1) Shove: You have plenty of fold equity, and if he's calling light, then you're going to win more than you lose in the long run

    2) Fold: if you dont want to take a risk at a race then you want to fold preflop. Given that this guy is doing a lot of preflop raising, i still suggest a shove though...
  23. ThereIsNo ThereIsNo is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 4:58pm) in reply to threebanger

    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" bgColor=#ffffff border=0><TBODY><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD colSpan=2><TABLE cellPadding=2 border=0 celspacing="0"><TBODY><TR><TD>I don't think raise to 4000 is to induce a 4bet, it just looks stronger than straight shoving...there is no trap there...obv with half our stack in the middle we're playing the hand to the end. IF he cold calls (which seems unlikely), then we act first from the sb and are shoving any flop.

    You really think there's much of an EV difference in 77 v. 88 against a loose opponent? </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    obv i know a 4K is not trying to induce a 4 bet... but it gives the guy a chance to play back at you which is not what you want w/ 77 and only 20bbs. If the villian cold calls there is 10K in the pot and you push your final 4K on any flop he is getting 3.5 to 1 and is calling with almost everything. I think making it 4K or 3600 is horrid
  24. JAAAAA!!!! JAAAAA!!!! is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 5:03pm) in reply to ThereIsNo

    You don't have enough chips for a true set mine, and if you make a standard RR pre, and he flats, you are going to be in a very difficult spot OOP with 77 on most flops.

    He's been opening 4 pots an orbit?

    RR All-In pre.
  25. pnkranger pnkranger is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 5:18pm) in reply to JAAAAA!!!!

    JAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    If you look closely, he says he opened two hands and called two hands in the previous orbit. Without more info (i.e., what he showed down in those situations or a larger sample size), I think it's a fold first, shove second...

    Maybe that is really weak-tight of me.
  26. trouble trouble is offline

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    Sep 27th, 2007 (9/27/2007 7:39pm) in reply to ThereIsNo

    agree to disagree i guess...i like shove as well though...

    care to comment about what you said regarding ev 77 v. 88?
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