Originally Posted by jdawg0913

im confused

full tilt and pokerstars said that we can cash out again in the emails i received from them. has anyone done so successfully since sunday?

I didn't get any e-mails from PS about the seizures, did they only e-mail effected players or players who have tried to cash out?

got my substitute check and found out on the15th, it was returned.........bad feelings.......have had e-check in limbo since the 7th, also......only responses have been that they are lookin into it, "thanks for your patience".

GG stars

I am looking to do a bank wire on my next cashout.

Can anyone can tell me what is a Bank Swift - BIC? Its on the bank wire application on PS.

Thx in advance. RTR

My eCheck cashout (5/31) was denied and today they put the $ back in the old account aka the "roach motel". What I have been reading on here and 2+2 has not been very promising at all in regards to bank account transfers. Wtf other options are there???

 

Originally Posted by RollTideRoll

I am looking to do a bank wire on my next cashout.

Can anyone can tell me what is a Bank Swift - BIC? Its on the bank wire application on PS.

Thx in advance. RTR

guys DO NOT post specific info about what the are doing to combat this shit!!!!!...dont make it any easier for teh feds...your are kidding yourself if you dont think they are reading these posts...

MODS, DELETE ALL SPECIFIC INFO THAT THE FEDS COULD USE...IMMED!!!!

 

Originally Posted by K1d_Gr1nD

 

Originally Posted by RollTideRoll

I am looking to do a bank wire on my next cashout.

Can anyone can tell me what is a Bank Swift - BIC? Its on the bank wire application on PS.

Thx in advance. RTR

guys DO NOT post specific info about what the are doing to combat this shit!!!!!...dont make it any easier for teh feds...your are kidding yourself if you dont think they are reading these posts...

MODS, DELETE ALL SPECIFIC INFO THAT THE FEDS COULD USE...IMMED!!!!

lol you are an idiot trying to be superman. nothing in that post at ALL is anything the feds do not know or can't find out by looking at the cashout options on pokerstars website. its basic knowledge any international bank transfer requres a swift code.. so thanks, but no thanks.

 

Originally Posted by K1d_Gr1nD

 

Originally Posted by RollTideRoll

I am looking to do a bank wire on my next cashout.

Can anyone can tell me what is a Bank Swift - BIC? Its on the bank wire application on PS.

Thx in advance. RTR

guys DO NOT post specific info about what the are doing to combat this shit!!!!!...dont make it any easier for teh feds...your are kidding yourself if you dont think they are reading these posts...

MODS, DELETE ALL SPECIFIC INFO THAT THE FEDS COULD USE...IMMED!!!!

Swift isn't the name of the bank. Swift is the name of the system used to transfer money internationally. Check out http://www.exportbureau.com/check_swift_code.html for more.

solid, we have a strong team upfront fighting this battle for us and i'm happy to see this. keep the vids coming

After watching Mr Pappas' interview and comparing it to Mr. Kathlein's (online poker players=alcoholics and child beaters) interview, it appears the the online poker community is in pretty good hands.

 

Originally Posted by tcb21

After watching Mr Pappas' interview and comparing it to Mr. Kathlein's (online poker players=alcoholics and child beaters) interview, it appears the the online poker community is in pretty good hands.

exactly. at least we have people fighting for us rather than just the forums.

i got a 4k wire today in pending transactions for my bank. clear 1 time!!!

lolol. calling me a kid when his name specifically has KID in it. all im saying it stop overreacting as his post had nothing harmful at all in it. so again, thanks. but no thanks.

Patrick "Skallagrim" Fleming, PPA's Litigation Support Director, has kindly taken the time to put together some information for us regarding various federal legal issues. Please check it out:

Read/comment on this on the Poker Legislation thread on the topic

Click here to Twitter

 

Originally Posted by Skallagrim

Hello fellow poker players. This is the PPA's Litigation Support Director "Skallagrim" and I am posting this at the request of TheEngineer.

The recent seizure of funds by the US government and the resulting disruption in echecks and paper checks has a lot of poker players rightly concerned; they want to know: is it a violation of Federal Law for me to play online poker, to cash out, and/or to deposit?

I will try and make sense of these question in this post. Unfortunately, virtually all of the law in this area is open to debate. So until the courts make actual decisions on these issues, nothing is completely for certain.

Lets start with the big question: Is playing online poker illegal under Federal law?

The answer to that question is the only one that is pretty straight forward: there is a general legal consensus that even the DOJ agrees with that merely participating in a poker game online does not subject a US resident to a federal prosecution, In other words, THERE IS NO FEDERAL LAW MAKING PLAYING ONLINE POKER A CRIMINAL OFFENSE.

- Please note, State laws are an entirely different matter and will be the subject of a later post -

The reason I can say the above with some certainty is that there are only 4 Federal laws that affect "gambling" and thus arguably poker. They are the recently passed Unlawful Internet Gaming Enforcement Act (UIGEA), and the older Wire Act (WA), the Illegal Gambling Business Act (IGBA), and the Travel Act (TA). ALL OF THESE FEDERAL LAWS TARGET THE BUSINESS PROVIDING THE GAMBLING, NOT THE PLAYERS PARTICIPATING IN THE GAME.

I must note that is is also arguable that none of these four acts apply to online poker at all, for either the player or the site (that again is for another post), but I want to concentrate this post on player's money, not on money held by the sites.

The UIGEA is, of course, the act most people have heard of. It was passed in Oct. 2006 and shortly thereafter a number of large online poker sites left the US market. THE UIGEA, HOWEVER, DID NOT MAKE ONLINE POKER ILLEGAL. The UIGEA expressly states in the law that it was not making any game illegal that wasn't already illegal, nor was it making any illegal game legal. So despite those sites that left the US, either they had already broken US law by running a poker site before the UIGEA passed, or they were not breaking the law and the UIGEA does not apply to them. As you well know, some sites believed they were not breaking the law and continued to offer poker to US residents.

The evil of the UIGEA, as it affects your money, is found in the provisions that relate to banks. These provisions also do not "make" poker transactions illegal; they either already were or they already were not. But the provisions encourage the banks to block any transaction that might be related to "illegal online gambling." If they block a transaction that has anything to do with any game on the internet (including as was recently publicized, credit card purchases of State Lottery tickets!) they cannot get in trouble. If they knowingly allow a gambling transaction, however, they get in big trouble. Obviously if you run a bank its far easier to just not handle any transaction that's related to gambling than to try and figure out which ones are legal ones and which ones are illegal ones. But at least when a bank declines your transaction, they don't take your money. At worst they will hold it for a time while investigating, then return it to you and maybe close your account.

And one last point, the UIGEA, if it applies to poker at all, only applies to deposits to sites, it says nothing about player withdrawals from sites. It even says this in the regulations. But you try telling that to your bank's manager.

Taking your money for keeps can only be done by the government. They can seize money while investigating if they have "probable cause" to believe its "illegal proceeds." That's what they have done so far in the recent case. But they can only make it theirs for good by starting a legal Forfeiture action and proving in court by "a preponderance of the evidence" that the money is "illegal proceeds." This has not happened ... yet.

"Illegal proceeds" thus becomes the key. But generally speaking, illegal proceeds in the gambling context must be proceeds of the gambling business, not winnings or other money returned to the players.

Of course, its hard to prove whose money it is when its solely in the hands of the gambling business. So, for example, if you bet $50 with an online sports book on the Giants to win, and the Feds bust that book before the game and seize that money - the Feds are not going to give it back to you if the bet money is actually in the hands of the bookie.

But that's not the same as when that same sports book sends you back $75 because the game happened and in fact the Giants did win. At some point that becomes your money. And under Federal law your money (so long as you are not a "gambling business" like being another bookie) is not "proceeds." Again ignoring state law issues, and using sports betting as an example because it is clearly illegal under federal law, even your illegal gambling winnings are NOT illegal gambling business proceeds, and so not subject to Federal Forfeiture.

And that's the irony of what is currently going on. It is painfully obvious reading all the posts about the players who have had checks bounce and incurred overdraft fees or couldn't pay other bills, that the recent action by the Federal Government directly affected you players! It cost you your money! It was certainly not site proceeds.

And while the sites have for the most part taken it upon themselves to restore lost funds in players' accounts, that was probably not something they were legally required to do. For example, when you get a paycheck and someone steals it from you and cashes it before you can stop payment on it, you don't get a new paycheck (unless you have a very generous employer). Usually you are the one out the money. What the government did to poker players isn't exactly the same, of course, but the general principle still applies IMHO.

And that's why this action by our government has to be the last such action; we must stop this if we can, one way or another. This case will really set the standard for the future. If the Government can get away with this one, your poker money is not safe. If poker money isn't safe, who will play?

So, I say it is time to FIGHT. For us lawyers, we are preparing to go to court. For the rest of you, DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN! Join the PPA, write letters, call your congressperson, and let your friends know so they can join the fight too.

As for specific help fighting for your rights to your money, for that information I will turn things over to my friend and fellow PPA member, TheEngineer.

Thanks for your time reading this,

Skallagrim

 

Originally Posted by JPFisher55

G911 has an interesting update on the SDNY DOJ seizure. http://www.gambling911.com/gambling-...es-070109.html

Of course, anything in the G911 must be taken with a grain of salt. Still, it appears that the DOJ is not backing down since it has not unsealed the court documents behind this seizure. So I have a question for Skall and TE.

Has the PPA planned for potential DOJ action (subpoena to testify before a grand jury or, much less likely, filing of criminal information or indictment) against poker pros who represent FTP or PS or against principles of FTP or its software provider?

This article, IMHO, like so much of what g911 writes, needs to be taken with much more than a grain of salt. A truckload would seem about right.

I do think that if the DOJ were planning on arresting any person they would do that first and seize the money second - thats how they usually do it anyway. Its much easier for the person to get away after the money is seized than it is for the person to hide the money after they have been arrested.

As for the FTP pros, they don't need the PPA's lawyers; they already have some of the best lawyers in the country in their corner.

Skallagrim