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Is Poker a Game of Skill?

By Dan

Is Poker a Game of Skill?

It seems like a straight-forward question, doesn’t it? Is poker indeed a game of skill or are the cards that fall still determined by chance? This is the debate that will pervade the industry for quite some time to come. In Washington D.C., the Poker Players Alliance recently called a summit of some of its top advisors to discuss arguments for why poker, in the eyes of the law, should be considered a game of skill. After all, Congressman Robert Wexler has sponsored legislation called the Skill Game Protection Act that would exempt poker from internet gambling legislation such as the UIGEA and Wire Act. For now, let’s dive into some of the reasons why poker could be considered a game of skill.

Andrew Woods, Executive Director of the Global Poker Strategic Thinking Society, who attended the meeting with the PPA last week, commented, “A lot of the states regulate poker under a statute that says games that are determined in part or whole by chance are prohibited. Games in which chance dominates over skill are prohibited. We have to demonstrate that poker is determined by skill rather than by chance.”

So how is that possible? The cards that fall in any particular poker hand are subject to chance, right? There’s a possibility that your opponent is going to two-out you on the river. There’s the chance that, when you call with 4-10 offsuit, the flop will come 10-10-10. Woods explains the arguments in the courts’ eyes: “There is inherently some element of chance, but the way that the law is written, it has to do with the outcome. There is some variance in every hand; however, your ability to bet is all about skill. You can affect your outcome. There are only two factors that determine the outcome: a person performing an action and the cards you’re turning over. The question remains: Is there any chance involved whatsoever? All of the decisions in a hand are human actions; you have to call that skill.”

The basic theory is that any decision you make, whether it’s folding when you’re dealt 8-3 or raising when you’re dealt bullets, is based on skill. How can chance come into the picture if the decisions you make are skill-related? In an article written on the GPSTS website, poker pro Howard Lederer sums up the basic questions that need to be answered: “A game is considered to be a skill game if skill predominates over chance in determining the outcome of the game. Before we can apply this test to poker we must define a number of terms as they relate specifically to poker. These terms are: skill, chance, outcome, predominance, and game (what constitutes a game of poker?).” The arguments have to focus on the word “predominates.” Does skill dominate the outcome in poker or is it the other way around?

The way to test this question, according to Woods, is to review hand histories: “The methodology I’d use is working with an online poker database. I’d determine how many hands were decided without a showdown. I’d look at how many times betting led to the outcome of the hand. The preliminary data I’ve seen is that hands are determined by what you would call skill. The problem that poker players have had for a long time is that we’ve surrendered the idea that poker is luck in the short-term and skill in the long-term. In any hand, the skill at which someone bets will determine the outcome.”

Lederer sums up the argument that poker needs to make in order to satisfy the requirements of a skill game in the eyes of a law: “If we are testing the predominance of two things and one of those things is determined to be 60% and the other 40% of an outcome, then it makes no sense to say that the thing that is 40% is predominant over the thing that is 60%. Therefore, as long we can prove that skill is 51% over chance in determining the outcomes of poker hands, we should satisfy the legal test of predominance.”

In HR 2610, the Skill Game Protection Act, games of skill are merely defined as those where competition is primarily player versus player and not player versus the house. Therefore, a poker player uses his skill at the table to dominate the competition. The bill cites mah jong, chess, and bridge as other games of skill. In information posted on Wexler’s official website, he claims, “While each of these games contains an element of chance, over any substantial interval, a player's success at any of these games is determined by that player's relative level of skill and is widely recognized as such. Games where success is predominantly determined by the skill of the players involved, as a matter of law and of policy, are distinct from the games of chance traditionally described and addressed in federal and state gambling statutes.”

The PPA recently launched the Litigation Support Network, which is designed to give its members access to a group of pre-screened lawyers in order to solicit legal advice on poker-related issues. A secondary goal of the Network is to provide online poker’s lobbying arm with access to cases where it could use its financial backing to argue that poker is a game of skill in front of a court. In cases that have been heard so far, poker has not had the resources that an organization like the PPA could bring. Moreover, the PPA could provide detailed scientific research showing that poker is, indeed, a game of skill.

The skill game argument is the next step in online poker’s future. Stay tuned to PocketFives.com for all the details.

 

Published May 09 2008, 07:14 PM

Comments
 

JonesZ said:

IMO

Live is a game of "Skill"...

Online is a game "LUCK"!!!

May 11, 2008 11:16 AM
 

TheGoat said:

You must not be a winning player online JonesZ.  Skilll is skill whether directed towards online or live play.

May 11, 2008 11:47 AM
 

JonesZ said:

The Goat: too many factors play are in play when online that are not present when playing LIVE that a player cannot control...    

I do understand and respect the vague point you are making.

May 11, 2008 12:10 PM
 

NutsChamp said:

LOL at JonesZ....your right, people like Menlo are simply more lucky than me.

May 11, 2008 1:57 PM
 

greenpepper said:

hmmm i wonder what would happen if u strip mr menlo or any other superstar from their bankroll....

skill vs chance changes a lot from stake to stake online....

May 11, 2008 2:40 PM
 

JonesZ said:

It was s/he lack of understanding of the topic question... being a winning player online or Live was not and is not the question in the well written article.

Many will take a stance that there is no variance online, but, since no one really knows or understands how the RNG works; online is a game of LUCK.

May 11, 2008 3:19 PM
 

aad said:

Beginners think it's about chance and attribute their continuing losses vs. skilled players to bad luck. But that many of the same people feature at the WPT/WSOP final tables must mean there is a lot of skill involved otherwise Phil Hellmuth, Daniel Negreanu. Doyle Brunson etc. must be the luckiest people on earth.

May 11, 2008 3:27 PM
 

BLAKJACK said:

Trial and error, you must have the will to continue for any chance at success.  Oh and dont sit at a table with all ur money!

May 11, 2008 7:18 PM
 

ChrisA69 said:

This is a simple arguement to resolve. Show the video of Annette_15 winning a 180 SnG without looking at her cards. This proves without a doubt its skill and not chance. End of story!

May 11, 2008 7:21 PM
 

Goodyvaj763 said:

LOL! It's still got to do with a lot of chances sometimes guys... POKER to me now seriously is a luck factor game but you have to play solid to out beat those LUCK factors in the long run....LONG TERM GOALS!!!!!!!! be reached..

May 11, 2008 7:42 PM
 

Jennifear said:

In any given sample of 100,000 games, a skilled player isn't going to lose, ever.

Football has luck (factors like the wind that make the ball bounce funny, etc.) , yet noone is criticising the NFL for offering it's teams a prize for winning the Super Bowl.

Winning at Online Poker is indeed, a skill.

May 12, 2008 12:23 AM
 

JonesZ said:

Jennifear I am doing my best to understand exactly what it is your example is stating!

The pyridine you are attempting to draw between football and online poker is not one in the same. Would you please explain further.

May 12, 2008 7:23 AM
 

teamnolimit1 said:

Poker is a game of skill.. Online or live. the swings are just way wilder online tournament stuctures are diffrent faster more hands per hour the varience is incredible. I agree bankroll has a lot to do with it. Take pearljammed strip him of his bankroll make him start over and he will catch hell just like all of the normal players. I still believe he would eventually regain his bankroll but it would be slow.

May 12, 2008 7:24 AM
 

lordxixor101 said:

Jones,

I love how you are forcing other people to prove you are wrong, when you've done nothing to support your arguments.  I can sit here and claim the sky is really green, not blue, and shoot holes into other's arguments to the contrary, yet it doesn't make me right.

Also, I think you see Jennifears point.  In football, a gust of wind can blow knocking one QB's throws offline, while not blowing on the other teams critical throw.  One team might get called for a penalty when their offensive lineman is slipping and grabs the D-lineman, where the same penalty isn't called on the other team (just variance).  Yet, when they have the best team determined by 1 game (really, if they played 100 games, would the Giants beat the Patriots 51 times or more?), we don't call it a game of luck.  Poker has elements of luck, but its a game of skill.

May 12, 2008 8:15 AM
 

Loftarasa said:

This is not a debate.

Probability is math. Meteorologists use math models to predict the weather, and sometimes they are right and sometimes they are wrong. If you could flip a coin and know that it will hit heads 50.1 percent of the time, suddenly flipping a coin is not gambling anymore.

May 12, 2008 9:01 AM
 

JonesZ said:

lordxixir101 again a very vague description and now a rationalization. Football does not play the Superbowl 100 times, no sport does, the leagues that do play the best of 7 history has proven that the best team does not always win (is that variance or luck)?

You and others do not call online poker a game of luck for self serving reasons; IMO live poker is a game of skill, once the deck is cut the shuffle begins the cards are in plain view, skill determines the outcome. Online-is different game all you have to do is examine how the RNG works? The example Jennifear gives is so obsolete its is humorous "In any given sample of 100,000 games, a skilled player isn't going to lose, ever". How would you refer to a person that wins 30 or more races in poker? Ask Annette...

May 12, 2008 9:07 AM
 

DEADF1SH said:

LOL, its good to see poker players who still think it's a game of luck.  Bad for the PPA, bad for online poker in general, but good for my BR.

They are the ones that continue to load $$ into the Poker Economy, just like the players @ the slots in Vegas,,,"Maybe I'll get lucky tonight".  They are the one's who light up the chat when their AQo goes bust against 89s or AA<46s AIPF against an odds call. They typically, don't know the odds, don't know how to bet, play out of their BR, out of position, and refuse to study the game to see if they have a leak. TYVM

The size of your BR is irrelevant if your playing within it, if you have $100, then play the $1,or less.  Ask Annette or Ferguson.

I donked off a more than a few grand my first 18 months of online poker, then joined a training site, learned the game, learned to play SnGs, learned to manage a 3 month losing streak, but most importantly, learned to manage my BR.  $5 SnGs and $10 MTTs to start, followed Ferguson"s BR mgmnt formula. I listened to 2 buddy s who have made a living over the past 2 years slugging out low level buy in SnGs amd Mtts, and listened to them chastise me for entering a $50 tourney when all I had was $3K in my account.  When would win  a $215 satty and wanted to play the a Sun  major, they told me I was and idiot, it's "1/10 your BR moron".  

I'm profitable now, have been since Jan 07, thanks to Quaid, Chippie, PXfactor, and the players who think its luck

.

Jenn, you can't use football, and I'm not sure there is an comparison that will work, poker is unique, it takes too long for the skill level to overtake the luck factor, thankfully it will.

I play live. The quality of play, in general, at the larger casinos, in the $1-2 NL  ring games is way worse than online in ring games.  Perhaps, that's why some people can win live and lose online. it's the competition.

May 12, 2008 9:30 AM
 

lordxixor101 said:

Jones,

But, here, you support my argument.  The best teams don't always win at sports.  So, the best always winning is not a prerequisite for a game of skill.  Secondly, you have no issues with live poker, yet you have issues with RNG's.  Really, RNG's are wholly complicated programs that, when boiled down to, are random enough for poker.  Even if you can prove it isn't completely random, who cares, you have no idea what card is coming next, and neither does anyone else, so its good enough (Grapsfan wrote an article about this).

Also, what would be my self serving reason for wanting poker to be skill?  The only money I get from poker is money I win.  If I'm lucky or good, it's all the same money in my pocket, and it spends the same way.  

For deadfish, I disagree that you can't use football.  It isn't the best example, but it's a skill game with a bit of luck.  Poker's luck is much more obvious than most other skill games/sports.  But, there is luck involved in most things you do.

Take getting a job.  You can have great games, great experience, but the hiring manager has a huge fight with his wife 20 minutes before your interview.  It clouds his judgement, and you get worse scores than a similar candidate who interviewed yesterday.  You couldn't do anything to prevent it, it's just a bad break for you (or good for the other guy).  Yet, over the course of your life, these even out (not every interview you get will have a fight right before it).  

So, went the long way, but as I tried to show, there is some "luck" in football, so it can be used as a comparison, even if its a bit rough (though, when you compare any 2 things, there always some liberties taken.  Personally, I think a baseball example might work out much better.

May 12, 2008 12:10 PM
 

Spraggs said:

CHICKEN or EGG?

May 12, 2008 12:24 PM
 

MondayWins said:

"Luck" is getting AA om the BB with the dealer picks up KK.

"Skill" is being able to put that AA down on a K-Q-Q board.

May 12, 2008 1:38 PM
 

lazystudent said:

Poker is a game of skill. It is a contest of abilities, more akin to bridge or chess than it is to gambling, in that more-talented players will prevail against less-talented players. Chance can and will affect short-term results, but skill separates winners from losers over time.

You will never get to play a pickup game against Kobe or a round of golf against Tiger, or play me heads up and have a chance but you can plop your buy-in down and take on Doyle Brunson or Phil Ivey.

Thats the greatest part of poker.

May 12, 2008 6:24 PM
 

JKamikazeKid said:

I've seen this argument time and time again and I will be the first to say that poker does have a good amount of luck involved.  However, if you make a comparison to a slot machine (multi-wheel spin with RNG coded within), what are the odds of you hitting Bar-Bar-Bar?  You don't know. however, the RNG in a slot machine doesn't continually cycle when the spin is started.  The RNG "STOPS" when the handle is pulled or the button is pressed.

As everyone knows, the "live" shuffle serves the purposes of randomizing the cards prior to a deal.  If the RNG runs true in poker and the RNG is to act as a shuffle, then the argument of the RNG preventing the skill factor is moot.  The only way that the RNG would be false is if the RNG program ran and randomized the cards throughout the hand.  If programmers are able to halt an RNG in a slot machine when the reels are "started", then programmers would know that the RNG stop is triggered and the cards are set when the 1st card is dealt.

The remaining argument is no different than live poker.  Odds, betting patterns, reading your opponent can all be calculated.  Regarding bad beats, is there a possibility that someone can catch a 2-outer?  Yes....that's why there's a 9% (5% on river) chance of WINNING the hand.  It's not luck...it's odds.  Is there a possibility that a coin flip can go either way?  Yes...which is why there are 52%-48% ODDS.

As long as these odds can be calculated and a person has control of what and how he/she acts/bets, then poker will remain a game of skill...online or live.

May 14, 2008 12:07 PM

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