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Poker and the Stock Market: Part 2

By xmikex137 | Published Oct 31 2008, 08:01 PM

(continued from Part 1)

#3 Long Term vs. Short Term

You don’t have to ask around long to find that if you are participating in either poker or the stock market to make money in the short term, you have it all wrong. Both share a fundamental concept that in order to be successful you must apply your strategy over the long term and not the short. There is too much variance in both to try and “win” over a short span of time. Mathematics and statistics prove that over longer courses of time variance decreases. Common sense just tells you that if you have an edge, you can exploit it over a longer period of time, when variance and other factors level out with skill factors. This concept is true in all paradigms of life, not just poker and the stock market. On the contrary, if you’re saying to yourself “Wait…What is my edge?” Well, if you don’t have an edge, either find one, or find a new hobby.

Your return on investment (ROI) would tend to be higher in both poker and the stock market if you recognize the fundamental idea that in the short term anything is possible. On any given day you could lose money with this approach and many poker professional poker players (amateurs too) posit that on any given hand a rookie can outplay a pro. But over extended periods of time, if they play 1000 hands, the more skilled player will have more time to develop and apply his talents. What does this mean? Allow yourself enough time for skill and all other controllable factors to outweigh the variance, just as is in the stock market.

Any investor knows that stocks are very risky in the short-term. Stock prices fluctuate widely; a discernible contrast to the stability of bonds, government issued t-bills and bank deposits (all insured by the government). It is historically accurate that the stock market (a portfolio of stocks) has averaged about a 10% return every single year consistently for over 100+ years. It is even a well-known fact that stocks are the single most profitable long-term investment you can make; more than money markets, CD’s, bonds, cash itself, savings accounts, etc.  Think of your poker ROI with this in mind. If you would like poker to marvel the stock market in this regard consider it a long-term investment that will pay dividends over time.

Professionals who make a living as “day” traders (short-term investors) involve inherently more risk than the average investor on Wall Street, a principle that comes with this job’s territory.

The bottom line is there is much more risk in both poker and the stock market in the short term. Plan for the long-term, it’s the best way to guarantee success.


#4 Luck and Skill

This in part is aforementioned in the section about long and short-term strategy but not at all elaborated upon.  Luck is just a random factor involved in both poker and in the stock market. It is important to note that it is indeed random; somebody’s good luck is at the expense of another’s bad luck.  You cannot control luck in either the stock market or in poker. You have to understand and accept that getting into either will guarantee your exposure to luck, sometimes in good form and sometimes in bad.

You can find comfort in that developing and perfecting your skills can help you overcome bad luck and further, can help you seize the good luck you encounter. Betting, bluffing, raising, folding, check raising, aggression, reading ability; these are all things that have just as much prevalence in poker as luck; the only difference is that you can control these factors. If you acknowledge that there are an extremely wide variety of skills to possess in poker, it goes a long way in coping with one of the factors you cannot control.

The stock market, again, is no different. There are endless scenarios where someone who knows very little can get rich from investing. On the contrary, there are investors who are extremely well educated and knowledgeable about the market and all it takes is one unlucky event to cause a large sum of money to be lost. The point is that on average and over time, the person who knows what they are doing, despite the presence of luck, is better off than someone hoping to get lucky. After all, exceptions to the rule are by no means how you measure true success in any field.


#5 Variance and Volatility

Perhaps the deepest correlation between poker and the stock market is variance. For the most part, it’s not possible to delve into either poker or the stock market without recognizing the concept of variance. It’s a fundamental principle in both entities.  In layman’s terms, variance is defined as a discrepancy; an event that departs from expectations (anything that varies from a norm or standard).  In poker, you are probably accustomed to hearing variance, but in the stock market, the more often used word is volatility (tending to fluctuate sharply and regularly). When the stock market goes up one day, and then goes down for the next week, then up again, and then down again, that’s what you call stock market volatility.

Variance and volatility are accepted norms in both fields. We accept these norms while participating, sometimes even subconsciously. They are both out of our control, yet they don’t obstruct us in the involvement of either. 

A typical scenario in poker is understanding and accepting that if you have pocket aces against pocket two’s, only 4 out of 5 times you will win. Variance (more specifically statistics) controls the other 20%. In the stock market, part of being a trader is that on any given day, any stock price can fluctuate, out of the bounds of your control. Shares are bought and sold with this idea in mind. These elements are not only out of our control, but they can sometimes even drive us to the brink.  Since these are just averages and statistics, on some days variance will be higher than others and you’ll feel like the world is certainly scheming against you. It’s important to note that we usually never acknowledge when the variance is overwhelmingly in our favor, only the opposite.

But to participate means to accept these standards. Poker players often curse poker for its evils, almost always having to do with variance.  If you want to be successful in poker, recognize that lucrative and profitable stock market trader’s deal with this principle on a daily basis. You are not alone. Laws of averages, theories and universal truths have been parts of society for billions of years, even before our knowledge of them. Don’t let any one factor of any game determine your success or failure, or even your participation. Use what you can to overcome these factors; after all, that’s what all the successful people do.

Whatever you do, if you find yourself in a debate about poker and somebody calls you a gambler or a degenerate (or both) tell them that among Warren Buffet, the family’s financial advisor and your father’s boss that you are in good company.



---


Comments
 

nemostars22 said:

really good finish nh man

November 1, 2008 12:51 AM
 

jimmydewrag1 said:

Dude wondering if you were going to input Futures,Options,calls/puts into your article. By the way great two parter how about a third?. Anyway PM me about what you think obout a contract for oil(call) I think it should rise with a decent jump soon.Peace...dewrag

November 1, 2008 1:55 AM
 

CJDeman said:

Dont strictly agree with all your points but a really nice article, please write some more :)

November 1, 2008 4:14 AM
 

gonja316 said:

nice finish man gg

November 1, 2008 9:38 AM
 

Leet8s said:

ehhh, i disagree with some points here, i think you are too general in your statements

"Any investor knows that stocks are very risky in the short-term. Stock prices fluctuate widely; a discernible contrast to the stability of bonds"

not true at all, bonds, especially those of lower coupons and longer maturities have great interest rate exposure that can change its price greatly.  in addition, just like how a stock can report a very negative piece of news that can send it flying down, a company's bond can fall significantly on news of low liquidity or bankruptcy.

"Since these are just averages and statistics, on some days variance will be higher than others and you’ll feel like the world is certainly scheming against you."

High volatility the day before usually leads to high volatility today.  The market in general works on conditional volatility, something like ARCH modeling.  You make it sound like just some days you will see high (or extremely low) volatility just because it has to under a probability distribution.  This isn't the case.

Overall it's a good article though, thanks for the read.

November 1, 2008 10:35 AM
 

xmikex137 said:

Thanks guys. Leet8 just wanted to quickly respond to you to clear so something up.  The goal was precisely to be general in this 2 piece article. I wanted to do a 5part series but was limited to 2 and could not analyze deeper into some of these issues. Although I wish I could have.

Your statement about bonds is true, but for a general comparison, conventional wisdom regarding bonds and stocks has always been = stocks are riskier. This is primarily because bonds have fixed maturities and if you rule out the company going bankrupt, you know exactly how much money you will be getting and when (assuming you hold until maturity). There are situations when some bonds are riskier than some stocks but take Treasury bonds for example: The yield return % is fixed over whatever period you buy it for. It's guaranteed. But everything you ever read about investing in stocks or bonds will consistently argue in favor of stocks being more risky. refer to <www.investinginbonds.com/learnmore.asp

Obviously if your talking about bonds in mutual funds as day to day investments, then yes they can be just as risky, but that to me is not par for the average investor. Just like buying risky bonds, there are risky stocks. When in doubt just take a value investing approach ;)!

My volatility statement was supposed to be primarily a poker statement. I should have specified. But if you think about a portfolio of stocks, volatility isn't going to follow any patterns. There's too many elements (stocks) to apply a distribution of any sort. It's just going to vary from day to day ie be volatile.

November 1, 2008 12:21 PM
 

kasilof said:

1. I think I read somewhere in your article that the market is efficient.  It is not necessarily efficient.  The dot-bomb mania caused a big bubble.  Similar to Greenspan lowering interest rates creating a bubble in housing.

2. I think you made the connection to stocks and poker.  However, I think you should also make the connection to stocks are horse racing.  The trainer like the CEO controls the shots.  The trainer might drug the horse, the jockey might pull the horse,  but all you got is DRF past performances.  In stocks you have the quarterlies.  The CEO may issue stock options and he might overpay himself of do other fraudulent things.  The track takes a 20% track take.  The government takes taxes and brokers takes fees.

3.  It is very well possible that current bond and t-bill yields will not beat inflation.

4.  The stock markets can be predicted.  However, poker involves random draws of cards.  Many investors predicted this crash and housing bubble.

November 1, 2008 3:48 PM
 

xmikex137 said:

Kasilof-

1) I didn't say I agreed with the "theory" of market efficiency. Many do, many don't. I was simply stating it was the most well known theory of the stock market.

2) True but i don't know anything about horse racing so I couldn't really have written an article about it. Sounds interesting though.

3) True again but this doesn't make bonds more risky than stocks overall. My point was that whatever rate you buy T-bill's at is guaranteed and locked in.

4) Again, we agree. I didn't say poker and the stock market were completely similar, I'm just arguing that these 6 themes have a strong relationship.

November 1, 2008 8:33 PM
 

cbax9888 said:

great finsih to the article

i enjoyed the 2nd part much better than the 1st but that was mainly becasue of your resposne to criticism on the artile. A writers true knowledge or power comes out in their resposne to criticism to their work and i feel you more than well exemplified your points.

All the criticism was not directly but mainy because of the "broadness" of article but for 2 pages to explain a topic or 2 that 200 pages would not do the justice of explaining, isnt exactly easy. But i think you did a nice job

Lastly looking at the body of work you have to remember its on p5's and for a p5's article the level of knowldge, grasp of the topic, and explanantion is clsoe to the top on articles ive seen on p5's.

so great article , hope to see you write more on not only p5's but other sites, and btw luvin the close with the warren buffet reference...well played

November 1, 2008 10:12 PM
 

Excalibur said:

Great read.

December 3, 2008 10:37 AM

 
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