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Randomness and Unpredictability

By grapsfan

Conspiracy theorists love to claim online poker may be rigged, usually to soothe their egos after getting their asses handed to them.  The “rigged deck” theory is usually applied in one form or another, often in conjunction with my favorite excuse: “the shuffle can’t truly be random, because a computer can’t generate a truly random number!”  This is a very easy argument to put forth, because very few people have the first clue how a random number generator (RNG) works.

I do have a clue.  I spent two years working at WMS Gaming, verifying various aspects of slot machine game play and payout, including number probability and distribution.  I will do my best to teach you some of what I know.

Computer people usually talk about pseudo-RNGs (PRNGs), in concession to the fact that, yes, a computer algorithm to generate a random number does not have an infinite value range to work within.  The size of the seed, the number used to start the RNG process, is limited by the mathematics of the computer.  The true implications of “PRNG v. RNG” are technicalities which fall outside the boundaries of my educational background, and probably everyone reading (unless you happen to be a doctoral candidate in number theory).  So I’ll keep using the RNG acronym for now and you can assume that I know we’re really talking about pseudo-random numbers.

RNG algorithms start with a seed, a number which kicks off the process.  This seed is a very large number (VLN) which should have no predictable source.  Most computer systems use a derivative of system time: number of milliseconds elapsed in the current day is common, as is system date & time, expressed as an integer number of seconds since a long time ago.  You then take the seed and put it through some arithmetic function with another VLN, to generate a third VLN.  The third VLN is modulo’d (the remainder in a division operation, rather than the quotient) across the range of numbers from which we wish a random number (in the case of a deck of cards, we want a Mod 52).  The third VLN becomes the seed to generate the next number, and so on for as many random numbers as you need.  As a picture, it looks like this:



grapsfan article 1


Simplistically, this is a linear RNG, and is the basis by which most online poker rooms, slot machines, and other gaming devices and computing systems generate random numbers.


The problem with such a straight-forward linear RNG is that you can, with some computing horsepower, look at the system outputs and determine what the arithmetic function and seed may be, to narrow down the possibilities for the next random number (if not lock in on the precise number).  The same initial seed will always produce the same sequence of random numbers.  The easiest way to counteract this is to add some form of entropy or external pseudo-random variable.  For example, take white noise off an electrical circuit and combine it in a summing junction with each input to the arithmetic function.  The result is each input to the arithmetic function is less predictable – making each random number coming out less predictable as well.




grapsfan article 2 

 

One of the problems at Planet Poker, many years ago, is they did not do enough to randomize the feedback loop to the function.  Modern online sites have directly addressed this problem with solid technical solutions.  Some use software feedback (i.e. mouse positioning on client computers) or multiple-seeded algorithms.  Others use hardware-based RNG algorithms, which take signals from oscillating crystals or noise samples from within the circuitry. 


All sites are also smart enough to use a distributed RNG, so you would have to be aware of numbers being generated for every “dealer” on the site to reverse engineer the seed and determine the next outcome.  Shuffling algorithms, to determine the order of cards based on the random number sequence, are equally complex (this could be a topic for another article, if there is interest from the PocketFives community).


So, if you’re concerned about the randomness and equitable distribution of cards from an online poker site, don’t be.  True, the pattern is not truly random…but that’s irrelevant for the game.  Shuffling routines for casino dealers are typically not thorough enough to generate true randomness either.  And the ShuffleMaster device used in many card rooms is, at its heart, a PRNG computer program in the device’s firmware, subject to the same algorithmic concerns.  As poker players and gamblers, we don’t need randomness.  We need unpredictability, equivalent odds for the next card off the deck to be any one of the unseen possibilities.


After all of this, if you’re still paranoid, my advice is to withdraw all of your money and not play anymore.  No explanation will convince you.  I wish you well in your quest to stay safe from the ghosts, goblins, and card cheats going “bump” in the night.

 

 

Published Apr 25 2008, 12:51 PM

Comments
 

lordxixor101 said:

Well, though I agree with Graps (from everything I've seen, it seems like the RNG's are random enough to be useful), I'm sure this won't convince everyone.  It's easier to blame the RNG for your losses than to look in the mirror and say that you aren't good, but you wan to get better.

April 25, 2008 1:50 PM
 

seal said:

The thing about Graps is not just that he is a great writer, but he includes diagrams!

April 25, 2008 1:57 PM
 

BigA524 said:

What did stars pay for this article? :)

April 25, 2008 2:17 PM
 

Kris Homerding said:

mine don't say "bump" in the night.......

April 25, 2008 2:22 PM
 

DJam21 said:

My head hurts.

April 25, 2008 2:36 PM
 

Waters said:

I can understand nine words in this article now! ;) Thanks for the insight.

April 25, 2008 3:05 PM
 

bravecow said:

The ONLY thing I notice to be less than randon is the flop comming out all one suit more than I have seen in any cardroom. Then again the number of hands in a cardroom I see are far less than online.

April 25, 2008 3:51 PM
 

vgnnry said:

very random indeed...esp when u hit the cashout button and every hand after that is a cooler

April 25, 2008 4:18 PM
 

JonesZ said:

grapsfan is comparing apples to oranges. The slot machine algorithm is hard-coded in the hardware.  To suggest that a slot machine algorithm and online poker software algorithm work the same or similar is not correct.

April 25, 2008 5:19 PM
 

dealace1 said:

I've always believed their deck is random. It wasn't until Potripper on AP that I realized site owners can be ultra-greedy. The rake just isn't enough for all of them...

April 25, 2008 5:39 PM
 

slizza420 said:

 Well I run like shyt usually live and online  so the live deck must be rigged for me too!!!!!

April 25, 2008 5:53 PM
 

HiRaX said:

so basically your saying its rigged....ahh I sooooo knew it.

April 25, 2008 6:39 PM
 

j_farah said:

"Some use software feedback (i.e. mouse positioning on client computers) or multiple-seeded algorithms."

Aha, so moving your mouse when you're all in does prevent bad beats!

April 25, 2008 7:09 PM
 

towman1 said:

It's obv still rigged

April 25, 2008 8:13 PM
 

freeworld777 said:

I believe the solution is 5

April 25, 2008 8:14 PM
 

zenon said:

The real problem is NOT that there is no randomness in the typical deal generated by a poker site. Rather it is TOO random. That is because the seed is re-generated with each deal and it is a very, very big seed. (See pokerstars explanation of their seed.)

By contrast, the 'seed' in a casino deal is much smaller and it is largely fixed. You have a much more stable array in a live 52 card deck than you do online. The dealer scrambles the deck once, pushes them together and places them in the shffle machine. The seed was the scramble and it is never done again unless you ask for a setup.

The laws of probability are more fully reflected online than live but the way we have learned to play is by interpreting the laws of probability by player experience in live play.

I would expect that as online play and simulated, non-dealer play both expand, we will see a re-interpretation of how to use the laws of probability in poker. When that happens, online poker would have completely redefined the game.

April 25, 2008 8:17 PM
 

grapsfan said:

Not sure I understand your point about "interpreting the laws of probability in live play", zenon.  WTF?  The # of outs, and the probabilities associated with them, don't change unless you know for sure that a card's location in the deck means it isn't in play for this hand.  Shuffling routines in live card rooms are good enough to avoid that situation the vast majority of the time.

April 25, 2008 10:54 PM
 

Nickmeister said:

It may be random, but I see a certain pattern continuing all the time when playing tournaments on AP. It also depends on the the number of chips you are holding. The larger stacks usually have a greater probability of winning than the smaller stacks no matter what cards they are holding. I think live games are naturally more random without certain patterns repeating all the time like you find online.

April 25, 2008 10:56 PM
 

resilient said:

very solid explanation of the processes... tyvm!!!

April 26, 2008 1:16 AM
 

MikeTJ23 said:

Self fulfilling prophecy - a negative mindset will cause negative results to become more likely.  

thought translation via the energy of your mind (all energy in the universe is part of one large "energy field" if you will) of that negative mindset will result in changing the RNG, or the shuffle, to be set so that the outcome of the hands or tournaments you are in WILL be negative, as expected.  

hence, tinfoil hat = keep that negative mindset from completely leaking out into the energy field and thus allowing better results.

April 26, 2008 2:45 AM
 

thelandlord said:

grapsfan is my hero

April 26, 2008 3:01 AM
 

nezbit said:

the way i c it, is if its rigged its rigged vs everyone.

I do c patterns though thats for sure. I dont get quad 7s 3 times in an hour live... even if i see as many hands per hour. no way

April 26, 2008 3:10 AM
 

Derek Galaxy said:

thx, tips..

April 26, 2008 4:17 AM
 

Wotan said:

What about winning players who say they don't think it is entirely random?  I know some.

April 26, 2008 6:08 AM
 

raisethis2 said:

The core question for anyone who ever thought online poker may be rigged is:" is it possible for the next card dealt to hurt me and (deliberately) help an opposing player"? That is the definition of rigged in this mindset.

While a discussion of randomness helps us to understand randomness, the question has to be," can a specific card be selected to be next dealt?"

April 26, 2008 8:45 AM
 

ripomatic said:

so if i understand correctly, the RNG selects a pre determined delt hand, another words the deal could be one that has a flush draw, set or strait in the flop, the RNG just randomly picks from the pre-set deals...(there could be a abundance of deals that have Aces,Kings, flush draws ect...)?????

April 26, 2008 12:22 PM
 

POKERH4CKS said:

and still we keep playing......

April 26, 2008 12:33 PM
 

grapsfan said:

No, rip, you're not understanding correctly.  What you described is basically how a slot machine works, where all the reel stops are preset before the play begins.  But for a poker game, it's not close.

I'll try to explain how the architecture works as quickly as possible.

In the case of an online poker room, the RNG just sits there and spits out a constant stream of random numbers between 1 and 52.  When the "dealer" for each table shuffles, it requests a bunch of random numbers to organize the cards in its deck.  Basically, it's shuffling them.  Rather than a riffle shuffle or spread shuffle like you see in a card room, the computer shuffle picks a random order of the 52 cards.

Once the deck is set, the cards are dealt the same way they would be in a regular game.

This is admittedly overly simplified.  Stars sets its deck at the beginning of the hand.  FTP doesn't set the deck until the dealer needs to deal a card.  For example, the dealer puts out 18 cards, two to each of the 9 players in a full ring Hold'em game.  On FTP, the 34 remaining cards are continuously shuffled until it's time to put the next three cards out for the flop.

Hope this helps.

April 26, 2008 12:58 PM
 

grapsfan said:

A couple of you have mentioned patterns..."I saw quad 7s three times in an hour", or "I keep seeing 3-flush flops on Absolute."  As human beings, we LOVE matching patterns and associating unrelated events with each other.  Some people see the Virgin Mary in their grilled cheese sandwich.  Some pick-and-choose characters out of the Hebrew version of the Bible to claim a prediction of the Iraq war.  And some of you are looking for conspiracies in online poker rooms.  

April 26, 2008 1:02 PM
 

Snurby said:

What baffles me is the stats I see on Poker Tracker.  Maybe I am just a bad player, but out of a sample of 36,000 hands, I have an even 50% chance to win during a showdown.  That just seems weird to me.  I'm not a great player, but I could swear that I put my money in good a lot more often than that...  Maybe I'm crazy =/

April 26, 2008 1:15 PM
 

ripomatic said:

TYVM...nice explanation/ analogy....

April 26, 2008 1:16 PM
 

mrdrevil2u said:

I dont believe that anyone with a brain thinks the RNG is the "problem" with the odd occurrances that happen online. Event the non conspiracy people say these odd things occur they explain it away with "you have not played enough hands to overcome small variances" et al.  As a card carrying conspiracy theorist the info sent from an RNG is sent somewhere and THAT is where the mischeif begins.....

I belevie your statement regarding RNG systems work the same way with Slot machines and ONline Poker rooms sums it up for me...

April 26, 2008 1:36 PM
 

grapsfan said:

raisethis2:

In theory, you could have the dealer select an "action" card for the turn and the river whenever you want.  It's software.  If you're willing to define a given set of rules, you can write the code to do anything.

The question, then, is:

What's your set of rules?  What "rigging" parameters are perfect enough to risk getting caught and killing the goose laying the golden eggs?

As an example, I've seen lots of people claim the short-stack in a tournament will lose far too many coin flips and take too many beats.  This way, they will sign up for another tournament right away.

I have seen an equal number of people claim the short-stack will win far too many flips and dish out too many beats.  This encourages the short-stack, if they're a bad player, lets them make it deeper, and gives them the hope to stick with the game and play more tournaments.

Both situations seem like plausible rigging theories.  Both can't be true.

April 26, 2008 1:42 PM
 

mrdrevil2u said:

With regards to grapsfan. The command could exist and not kill cash cow and it could ve viewed as "enhancing" the poker experience for more people to enjoy. With a more democratized payout system (in simpler language Manage the Payouts - just like all gaming software does and no site overtly states they DONT do) it perfectly explains the action flops, turn and river suckouts.  It also explains why the insiders and defenders of the software say you have not played enough hands to overcome short term variance.

Have you seen how many games the top online tournament players play?  I played 12 tournaments last year and cashed in 6 and won 2. No internet top "pro" has that record.

April 26, 2008 2:02 PM
 

BrentD22 said:

I do believe that online pro's play enough to overcome variance.  I also do believe that online play and live play are two way different things!  Have you ever sat at a poker table and ever other hand has "hot" cards?  Obz the dealer switches decks ever other hand so remembering what cards are hot can help.  If this was not possible than why do they occasionally "wash the deck" (this is when the mix the deck on the table so that the shuffle is more random.  Of course this isn't a secret and it won't work all the time, but occasionally it can help.  This is a lot more true at home games or back room games where only 1 deck is used and the shuffle is done by the same person each time.

Another important thing to think about is this.  If microsoft, the USA government intranet, google, and other huge networks with the best firewalls can be hacked into why can't pokerstars or other online rooms not be hacked?  More importantly in cash games why can't someone hack your computer and see your screen.  If there is money to be made by hacking people will try and there are some people out there smart enough to figure out how.  Have you ever noticed more bad beats in cash games vs. tournaments?  I have for sure!  Why because there is more money to be made by the online rooms in cash games vs. tournaments.  Tournaments they have no reason to ever rigg' the deck in cash games they do have a reason.  I'm not saying this IS happening I'm just saying that the more we say that it is impossible and it could never happen the more "potrippers" that will think they can't be caught.  Lightning CAN strike in the same place twice, just because you haven't seen it happen doesn't mean it can't happen.    

April 27, 2008 10:17 AM
 

trashersSs said:

loll brent....

i hope this is a good joke...

more bad beat in cash game vs MTT??????

are you kidding me loll

April 27, 2008 2:02 PM
 

grapsfan said:

Brent's right about one thing...computer security is FAR AND AWAY the most important issue to worry about with online gambling, or anything else related to the Internet.  People who get cheated aren't having it done through the poker site itself.

April 27, 2008 2:46 PM
 

HanoverFyst said:

Just because the the cards are unpredictable does not mean that the sites are not rigged.

But seriously, I've gone blue trying explain this to people. It's what they use to rationalize losing and I've decided that I will sympathize and commiserate as long as they keep buying in.

April 27, 2008 10:59 PM
 

conan99 said:

ok now lets thank crazy marco for catching  pottripper and opening all of our eyes. if theres cash to be made illegally some1 is doing it or trying to screw us. watch each others backs...its gonna happen again....gl on the felt..gr8 article graps

April 28, 2008 12:34 AM
 

mrdrevil2u said:

I will grant any defenders of the status quo that with the democratized aka "managed" payout the best players will eventually prevail. I have heard some gossip that it takes as few as 500k hands but most say its more like 1 million hands to get the variance curve to fall neutral ONLINE. Unless you are full time multi-tabling you will never play enough hands.  

This too supports my managed payout theory. What do better players, the ones who normally play live 1/2 and 3/5 who are sick of the screwed up cards online? The redeposit and play down (like ggod players are supposed to). Anyone ever hear that the play is tough at low levels online? Why do you think that is? Oh yeah...I just told you....Online sites manage payouts.  Its a predictable consequence of the playing environment.

Take any top live pro and compare their results to the TLB anywhere......WHY!??!?!?!

April 28, 2008 6:03 PM

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