Poker Articles

 
Sign in | Join
in
Bodog
$100K Guaranteed
Every Sunday! 
Sign Up Today!
Rakeback
Get cash back after
playing poker!
Sign up now!
CarbonPoker 
$15,000 Rake Chase
Plus 30% Rakeback!
Cake Poker 
33% Rakeback
$25k extra each month!


Poker Articles

    • Google
    • Yahoo!
    • Bloglines
    • NewsGator
    • MSN
    • AOL
    • Technorati
    • RSS

The Worst Play in No Limit Hold'em

By grapsfan | Published Jan 13 2009, 12:13 PM

I’m a big fan of 2000 WSOP champion Chris “Jesus” Ferguson.  I admire his unwavering focus and competitive streak at the table.  I admire his persistence in teaching proper bankroll management.  He had no other reason to play freerolls for months as part of his “Zero to $10K” challenges, other than proving it could be done.  And I’m fairly sure I played with him in the early days of the WRGPT (and I admire your longevity in Internet poker if you know what that is).

I strongly disagree with only one facet of his philosophy.  Ferguson is consistent in his belief that you should never be limping into pots pre-flop.  Either raise or fold, and if there is a raise in front of you, the primary decision should be “re-raise or fold.”  He’s proud of never having smooth-called a pre-flop bet during his entire run to the Main Event championship.  I’d be proud of whatever won me the biggest prize in the game, too.  However, in today’s tournament game, especially online, there are many good reasons to just make a pre-flop call.

Primarily, a pre-flop call is often the best way to control the size of the pot, and there are many reasons to want smaller pots.  Many online players, especially at micro-stakes, make big raises, pot-sized or more… so a re-raise against those opponents represents a very large bet.  You may want to call to hide the strength of your hand – if you play every pot in position, calling every time, you’ll see lots of flops and nobody will know if you’ve got 97o or a premium hand.  Without a huge stack early, you can’t play “small ball” in this style if you’re constantly playing big pots with raises and re-raises.

You may also employ diligent pot control in situations where you have a vulnerable hand out of position.  Let’s say it’s Level 1 of a double-stack $24+2 tournament on Full Tilt Poker, the blinds are 15/30, and most players at the table have close to the starting stack of 3,000 chips.  You’re in the small blind with AK or AQ.  There are four limpers in the pot and the action is on you.  If you raise to 150, every limper will call, and the big blind will likely call, too.  If you raise much more, you’ll be quickly committing yourself to a huge pot out-of-position with Ace-high.  Folding while getting such a good price for a half-bet, plus the readily available money from lesser kickers if you do flop a pair…well, that’s no good either.  A call is the best play available to you in this hand, in this particular tournament.

So there may be many reasons to call.  But the worst play in poker comes with no reason at all:

The worst play in NL Hold’em is a call because you can’t decide between raising and folding.

To achieve success, every action you take in a poker game needs an underlying reason.  And yet, I see “did I play this right?” threads all over PocketFives where the first mistake is a thoughtless pre-flop limp or call.  As the hand progresses, the pot grows in parallel with the confusion.  Hold’em is a game designed with the most complicated decisions to be made on the flop and turn.  If you haven’t given proper pre-flop attention, before those two streets, your road to scooping the pot becomes far rockier.

Your reason for calling doesn’t have to be elaborate, or mathematically perfect.  It can be as simple as your implied pot odds being good enough based on stack sizes and looseness of the players in front of you.  Or you can mix up your play with a monster hand.  Or you can justify a call because of the fact that you’re in position and want the option to take the pot away post-flop.   Determining a reason to make a play is, in and of itself, a skill lacking in many of your opponents.

Not knowing whether to raise or fold, and therefore calling, is indecision at its very dumbest.  If you don’t know what to do, take the time to figure out what to do.  It’s so basic, so obvious I can’t believe I wrote the sentence…and yet, most of the “I didn’t know what to do here” hand histories never show anyone dipping into their time bank to think about it.

I blame a lot of the “dumb call” issues on starting hand charts and books defining the basics of pre-flop play.  We’re told that baby pairs and suited connectors are worth playing because they’re often disguised to win large pots.  Such hands are easy to fold when the flop misses them.  But monster flops for those hands are rare, and you need the right implied odds…usually not available in the middle-to-late stages of most tournaments.  We end up torn between the chart burned into our brains, and not being comfortable with being able to calculate implied pot odds based on a read of our opponent’s ranges and how likely they are to stack off.  We know the late stages are “raise or fold”…but the charts are for deep stacks and small blinds, not this style of play. 

So, when the decision is “raise or fold”…when do you raise, and when do you fold?  There are potentially more variables involved in this decision than I have room to list.  The two I find most valuable are my relative stack size (use a “# of BB” count or “M,” however you prefer) and my baseline read on any opponents already in the pot (Psycho-Loose, Weak-Loose or Weak-Tight -- defined in an article a couple months back).  Depending on the tournament, I also think about what range my opponent might put me on if I raise.  At lower stakes, the “what’s my image” question is not part of the decision-making process, because not enough people are paying accurate attention.  What you think they think has a better chance of being incorrect.

If you’re having difficulty balancing the decision-making factors, follow these two simple rules:

If you don’t know what to do early (the first 6-8 levels), fold.
If you don’t know what to do in later stages, raise.

But never call because you can’t decide what else to do.
-----


Comments
OMGEuroGrind 

OMGEuroGrind said:

nice article, but I dont think so that call is always the worth solution, a lot of depend on specific situation. for example I am UTG with AA and I limp because know behind me is ultra psycho agrro moron, so its good spot get extra chips when limp/3bet

January 13, 2009 12:30 PM
darrick00 

darrick00 said:

solid article graps.

January 13, 2009 12:43 PM
OnUrBikeSon 

OnUrBikeSon said:

u contradicted yourself, u said that there are many good reasons to limp pre then said "Not knowing whether to raise or fold, and therefore calling, is indecision at its very dumbest"

........

January 13, 2009 12:59 PM
meaneye 

meaneye said:

He didn't contradict himself... he is saying if your going to limp, limp for the right reasons, have a reason to limp .... don't limp because you don't know whether to fold or to raise. (And no that isn't a reason)

January 13, 2009 1:18 PM
evang 

evang said:

"A call is the best play available to you in this hand, in this particular tournament."

In no way, shape, or form have you convinced me that this is the 'best' play lol.  I don't think that was the best example.

January 13, 2009 2:01 PM
Braaak 

Braaak said:

Thanks Graps.  Good thoughts as always.

YourTimeIsUp wrote an interesting variation on this in a post modestly titled "my gift to pocket fives" or something like that a while back.

January 13, 2009 2:27 PM
Faecal Matter 

Faecal Matter said:

I didn't read the whole article but does Chris Ferguson really beleive you should never call a bet pre-flop? only raise or fold? I find that hard to believe. If its true then wtf that's ridiculous. obviously playing aggressive is important but if you completely remove the option of calling then you'll be losing a lot of value and making a lot of mistakes in a lot of situations.

?????

January 13, 2009 3:20 PM
ricardogcl 

ricardogcl said:

i think open limp is only good in some paticular and rare ocasions.

like open limping with strng holding at first level of play late position.

however, after blinds increase, there is no reason to limp whatsoever.

now, to not flat call a opponent preflop raise is just insane talking.

u would want to flat for all kind of reasons

mix your play, hide the strength of your hand, float, etc etc etc.

i really dont beleive a player like ferguson would confirm that theory these days (2009)... maybe he wasnt that good a player that time, who knows....

i mean, u have 100b, someone opens in front of u for std 3 bb... should u always raise this opponent with medium pocket pairs???? that cant be right. actually, if u play like that all the time, ull lose the chance of stacking your opponent those times u hit trips and he has Aces\Kings.

plz, dont tell me fold.

January 13, 2009 3:25 PM
grapsfan 

grapsfan said:

OMGEuro, I never said that a limp was the worst play.  Please re-read the article.

Evan, if you'd prefer to raise there, that's fine.  But typically you raise to build a pot based on strength of hand & position, and to thin the field.  In the example I gave, you're achieving neither.  I appreciate you giving so much detail in your rebuttal argument, though.  Thanks for taking the time to comment.

January 13, 2009 3:30 PM
Micdiddy 

Micdiddy said:

So, something Ferguson did 8 years ago in poker is now outdated?W0W!

I think the first few paragraphs of this article are unfair, since obviously the game evolves and I'm sure Jesus knows that. Can you cite the last time he said to never call pre-flop? If it was fairly recent I'd be extremely surprised.

January 13, 2009 3:43 PM
grapsfan 

grapsfan said:

One paragraph, the second of the article, equals the first few paragraphs?  Huh.

Micdiddy, how surprised are you that it was last year, in the FTP Strategy Guide?

Ferguson wrote Chapter 3: "How To Bet".  The entirety of this chapter is about his "raise or fold" philosophy.  He admits that he's changed to a weakened version of this style, where he'll limp if someone limps after, or call if someone raises.  But he still discourages calling.

I'm disappointed so many of you think I was talking out of my ass when I wrote about Ferguson's philosophy on pre-flop play.

And I'm disappointed that so many of you missed the point of the article.  I did something wrong in writing it.  I'll try to do better next time.

January 13, 2009 3:59 PM
duclover 

duclover said:

Nice article Graps. I thought it was clear what your point was. I understood 100% Give it time and you'll see more positive comments

January 13, 2009 4:34 PM
dgillis 

dgillis said:

I think you did fine, it does require that you read the entire article to get the big picture... anyway I agree... its impossible to make a blanket statement like you should never smooth call, game is to complicated for any if\then logic to always be true.

January 13, 2009 5:40 PM
AAR1388 

AAR1388 said:

solid article IMO

January 13, 2009 5:44 PM
conan99 

conan99 said:

having the kahunas too go against one of the all times greats cardinal rule is impressive imo. obv some of you did not read the entire article which makes it point less too comment. obv online tourneys are a different animal and the situation graps referred too certainly deserves a call. he also stated that if you are indesisive.. just fold..pretty simple..i dont know if i could have laid it out there too the community like graps did .well done....and p5ver newbs fyi you need too read graps articles twice..there usually deep and over my own head lol

January 13, 2009 6:15 PM
toolray 

toolray said:

I read the same thing from Jesus, but I think he said he never called preflop except in the blinds-not a huge difference but shows he did change up a little

January 13, 2009 7:04 PM
Chasrg 

Chasrg said:

I agree graps, he has always said to raise or fold.  I also love how you rip the crappy responses to shreds.  I'd do the same imo.

January 13, 2009 7:44 PM
soccerfreakjj10 

soccerfreakjj10 said:

i really liked this article, solid advice.

January 13, 2009 8:46 PM
Tim Lock 

Tim Lock said:

I ate a big, red candle.

January 13, 2009 9:27 PM
NitroHUN 

NitroHUN said:

I totally agree with calling AK or AQ there. There's no way to even thin the field to heads-up, and you'll most likely end up with a pot of 15-20bb's when the stacks are only 90-100bb's. So basically, if you flop TPTK, and one of your opponents flop a set, 2pair, or a combodraw (highly likely), you will have to push in at least on the turn, or lay down a strong hand with one third of your chips gone away. C-betting a rag flop is more worse, cause youre opponents are mainly calling stations. The only thing you can hope for is a str8 or trips, but you can do the same by limping, you're monster will be paid of either way. I think it is ridiculous to commit yourself on the first level with AQ off.

Nice article btw!

January 14, 2009 3:35 AM
lordxixor101 

lordxixor101 said:

Another nice article.  For those that question Fergeson's philosophy though (even if he doesn't use it now), it really does have some merits.  Early in my online playing days, I went a month where I followed this (never call, raise or fold).  It works amazingly well at keeping you out of those hands that are extremely difficult decisions.  Do I want to play K10off, well, I don't want to raise with it, so I fold.  

Do I want to re-reaise AJ with blinds still to act with a tight raiser, nope, I fold.  AK, I reraise.

I have actually suggested players who struggle here to adopt that philosophy for a handful of games.  Many have come back posting that it changes their game.

For the record, I thnk that limping is the best play at times.  But, outside of early in tournaments where your getting implied odds, you need to be careful.  I usually use the philosophy that I need to be very sure I know what I'm doing to limp.  I'd much rather be wrong with a raise or wrong with a fold than wrong with a limp (since folding, at least the hand is over, and you live to play another, with a raise, you can win the hand right there or get a very good idea on where you stand at least).

January 14, 2009 5:56 AM
racer 

racer said:

another nice article graps, keep em coming

January 14, 2009 8:38 AM
FullTrick 

FullTrick said:

Please have a look on nbc heads up 08...Ferguson only check-calls against agro players like ivey and bloch...he may have changed his mind??

January 14, 2009 8:52 AM
grapsfan 

grapsfan said:

"I'd much rather be wrong with a raise or wrong with a fold than wrong with a limp."

Thanks for distilling 900 words into 18.  Makes me feel like I'm wasting my time...lol.

Trick, I think heads-up play is entirely different, especially in the game theory mind of someone like Ferguson.  I've never seen him write or talk specifically about heads-up, so I don't know for sure.

January 14, 2009 10:21 AM
JC_Illini68 

JC_Illini68 said:

lordxixor may have summed it up in 18 words, but nonetheless a good article.  I liked your AK small blind situation.  I've been playing those tourneys recently and the exact situation continue to pop up.  Thanks again!

January 14, 2009 10:47 AM
FabulousTexan 

FabulousTexan said:

I wonder if some people disagree with all poker articles just for the attention.

Yes, Graps knows that Ferguson has evolved his raise or fold mentallity. In the FTP Strategy Guide Ferguson admits that he has adjusted his raise or fold style. It's been several months since I read it and I'm too lazy to go look it back up, but I think wrote that he now has three versions of what he calls "strong style". In one of the versions he does call raises in position rather than re-raise. But he never opens a pot with a limp. He says he isn't as high on playing small pairs and suited connectors as a lot of people. But if you play them, he advises raising with them rather than limping because it disguises them when you do hit.

The point of the article wasn't Graps challenging Chris Ferguson's philosophy. It was that you should have a reason for raising and a reason for limping.

As a fan of Ferguson, I think Ferguson would agree.

January 14, 2009 6:45 PM
sunishnyc 

sunishnyc said:

limping or flatting when we are obviously far ahead of the limpers ranges and when they will pay us off with worse is just very poor poker.

Open limping went out years ago and unless you are in some magicaly deep online spot you are just playing weak scared poker...

As Dr. Bakes says... POKERSTOVE...determine ranges and act accordingly...not raising cause we are afraid of playing post against worst hand is lighting cash on fire

January 15, 2009 8:31 AM
brad2002tj 

brad2002tj said:

SSMTT 4 lyfe.

January 15, 2009 8:42 AM
thebigeasy59 

thebigeasy59 said:

go back to 2p2 imo

January 15, 2009 9:57 AM
deuceseven 

deuceseven said:

Wow... Don't raise a hand that is way ahead of other players ranges that can flop a hand that will get lesser hands to stack off on drawing slim. Excellent article. There is absolutely nothing wrong with raising AQ in the sb getting 2 or 3 callers and check/folding a KJ9 flop. Also if you flop an A or a Q that is the immortal nuts vs the idiots that play $26 mtts.

January 15, 2009 2:07 PM
EvertonYorkie 

EvertonYorkie said:

What ssync said.

January 15, 2009 3:12 PM
stealth 

stealth said:

Nice article but I totally disagree with the AQ or AK example. Because your oop, you need to raise it I'd say 5x-6x the bb because if you standard raise - they all call.

If you standard raise or just call it makes no difference at all, because if you flop top pair your not going to know where you stand. Someone could have flopped bottom two pair, and its harder to put people on a hand. Secondly, your playing out of position - so you definitely want to isolate weed the crap hands out or take the pot down pf.

I don't have a problem commiting myself to a big pot with a premium hand like AK. In the words of Furguson - "Pump it or Dump It"

January 21, 2009 4:33 AM
hitman247 

hitman247 said:

Great article!!

I loved the "As the hand progresses, the pot grows in parallel with the confusion."   That is often so true!

As far as everyone disagreeing with you.....until they publish an article or two....tell them to pound sand.  Everyone who plays poker is an expert....right?

Thanks again!

January 23, 2009 9:51 AM

P5's Member Blogs
Going For Triple Crown...
By Cre8ive - added Nov 04 2009, 02:56 PM
The New Grind Begins
By dtools22 - added Nov 03 2009, 11:22 AM
November starts well
By MakeMeMaster - added Nov 03 2009, 08:51 AM
 
Jordan 'scarface_79' Smith joins us to discuss his 10th place finish in the WSOP Main Event and his other recent large cashes.

P5s Podcast, Nov 5, 2009
Thur, 5 Nov 2009 12:00:00 EST
Ian Ramsey, local counsel for the Interactive Gaming Council, discusses a recent hearing in the Kentucky Supreme Court regarding the potential seizure of online gaming domain names.

P5s Podcast, Oct 29, 2009
Thur, 29 Oct 2009 12:00:00 EST
PocketFives.com Rankings
Rank PLB PRO
1. gboro780 2 1
2. djk123 1 4
3. Jovial Gent 3 3
4. moorman1 5 2
5. Doc Sands 7 6
6. rock3656 4 9
7. govshark2 12 7
8. shaundeeb 18 5
9. ImaLuckSac 11 13
10. Believer82 17 11
Carbon Poker Sorting Tables
Rank PLB
 1. djk123 9290.80
 2. gboro780 8544.39
 3. Jovial Gent 8459.52
 4. rock3656 7973.68
 5. brainwash 7650.78
 6. ImaLuckSac 7509.52
 7. hoodini10 7465.48
 8. govshark2 7429.53
 9. jet5087 7291.03
 10. TravestyFund 7278.15
Go