Poker Discussion
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I’m a writer, so hopefully this will be concise and somehow coherent.
I started playing online poker (NLHE) in August--this August. I’m 29, confident, ambitious, but with no pretence. I know where I’m at in my development because I AM results oriented, and until I get consistency, I’ll remain results oriented (it’s rather hard to think I have a game beat--or judge positive progress--unless I beat it, in my opinion).
I used to donk my way to final tables playing J9s hard, I loved T5 because it felt ‘lucky.’ Low suited connectors were awesome. I tried to go up in buy-ins and got ‘raeped.’
Currently I’m on a search and destroy for holes in my game. I’m sure there are many, but recognizing them has become tough.
I feel most comfortable, and get the best results in MTT’s. At the moment I am extremely tight (often 10%-18%), very aggressive (I often bet all-the-way preflop, flop, turn, and river at triple the blind).
This has caused major longevity improvement, but all I can ever do is break the bubble. I’m more-often-than-not shortstacked and just play to stay at 15+ BB. One beat by a chipleader and I go down hard after the antes.
I fear I am playing too tight. I fear I’m definitely playing too aggressive, but selling trips when I have an overpair is rather addicting, considering how few hands I play. When I see my table going 82 at showdown and winning, it doesn’t compromise my patience, but it affects how I bet with marginal shit like AT.
I’m finally learning to weigh pot odds vs outs, but this seems to just be an exercise in qualifying instinct. Of course I won’t call my runner-runner against a big bet. I don’t call when I miss the flop unless they’re checking and I’m under 10BB…then I usually bluff/bet.
I get trapped a lot too.
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Trouble =
MTT’s give me no time to read, usually. Do small ones (high stakes) leave you at the same table longer?
I assume EVRYONE is ALWAYS bluffing.
I don’t use position other than bluffing in early position. This works a lot in lol-blind-steal-flippament-mode.
My survivalism leaves me eternally shortstacked no matter what the MTT, or stakes. I always make it to the bubble. I’m always playing from behind (which I’ve become good at) but often it only takes one bad beat to take me down instead of several small beats/folds.
I can’t protect a table leading chipstack for some reason. They might be able to read me by the time I rarely get ahead.
Cash games destroy me. I can’t gear down. I can’t even win in 3NL.
Maybe my real problem is my player reading skills are subpar. I can’t put players on their style, much less their hand. To me, it’s another way of inviting change-ups and traps.
I’m way too paranoid. The game made me paranoid.
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The Point =
How do I loosen up?
How do I learn not to bluff strength early in a hand when I expect to be bluffed by utter bullshit? (it usually silences them)
Is math really that important when common sense tells you the same shit? (I don’t need to be told that eventually paying 1/4 of my stack on a flush/straight/trips chase is bad, unless I have an overcard and 10+ outs, and then its ok.)
I might actually be profitable if I understood cash-game hand value. Is it like 100% tighter than MTT/SNG, or is everyone just full of shit and I can’t read?
Is there a true method on betting per street, or is it all based on reads, math/value, and personal-experience/style?
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I’m really on the cusp of breaking deeper into MTT’s and figuring out Cash, I’m just stalled on stringing it all together (like everyone). If I’ve come this far in two months, I won’t be satisfied until I al least master the donkfest 3.30MTT with a top 3 finish.
(results oriented, sue me).
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WOW. You had me laughing from the first sentence to the last.
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By
Aarin
on
10-14-2008 10:56 PM
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Great forum, you guys are top notch ^.^
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 Aarin: | |
Great forum, you guys are top notch ^.^
What is $3NL?
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you are probably a lot worse than u think you are. Ive never watched any of the pxf videos or paid for a membership there (i learned the hard way), but that would prolly help u a lot. if u just started in august, you are awful no matter who u are.
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Review someone else's hand histories and see if you see things that you normally dont do.. Id gladly share some with you but odds are im a worse player than you are.
In short as a newer player you should try to keep things simple. Trust me you will beat low limits if you eliminate thinking from your game.. Dont try anything too fancy.
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By
Aarin
on
10-14-2008 11:46 PM
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That's more of what I was looking for. Like I said, I don't have an ego, I'm just new and know I can get better if I study. Direction gets hard because 'read a book' usually = someone who's selling their own truth that isn't necessarily there (google results). I'm not retarded, I'm just telling you where I'm at and asking for direction on where to look for help.
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Wow, such overthinking, i have been playing for 5 years and I am only a break even player. I play very low volume, obviously I have a full time job (an actual career) and have a personal life.
I have read one book in that time concerning poker and never had a more severe downswing in my life. All the book did was make me unlearn the instinct factor in poker which was the best part of my game. (Within those first two years, my only substantial win excluding a couple $900 wins, was a 10k aruba package)
After 2 years of playing, I had learned the hard way by trial and error and figured out most things by the book of hard knocks and taking some lumps to the head.
I am assuming the $3.30 donkfest you are talking about is the 3r on Stars. I have played this tournament being it the early or late one around maybe 250-300 times, my best finish was like 21st (had a str8 by turn, jammed, guy chased flush and caught, gg to me) and 10th, exact same beat! After 10 hours of playing for a lousy $180 return was just an utter waste of time and could not believe I lost both with an established hand against a draw and they hit, I soon realized it was probably not meant to be and would most likely never happen.
Well, 2008 I think I have finally come into my own, I have had 5 4-figure cashes this year and the most recent one was 2nd in the 3r for $4200 on Saturday. (Obv Brag!)
The moral of this pathetic story is:
With perseverance, dedication, and in most cases, a lot of hard, depressing, unbelievable beats, some people actually come into their own and win something once in awhile. The reality is that most players will end up on the losing end of this exciting, highly addictive and expensive game of poker. What side of the coin you will end up on is up to you and you alone, one thing I do know is after 2 months, you are still an infant to the game, don't expect the world until you have made it around the block!
Shelter
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By
fly44
on
10-15-2008 12:07 AM
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Based on your post I don't think you get it yet. You need to understand the math to be good. You can only go so far off making reads especially online. I would pick any book that would be suggested and just study that.
Now on the question how do I loosen up...I had the same question a while ago. I watched some of BelowAbove videos on PXF and it helped. I think you need to understand a lot of things before it totally clicks but before I watched his videos I would always play TAG when the stacks were deeper and not really adjust to my table. Now I feel like I can play every spot in whatever style is necessary and I just adjust to the situation.
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Take it easy - you just started 2 months ago. You shouldn't be expecting at this point to do anyhting other than lose.
If you are playig NL, try the .02/.05 tables, the players suck, and you'll have a shot at winning a buck or two there if you play TAG. You'll take brutal beats sure, but if you can't make a few bucks there ... you can't anywhere.
Read/watch as much as you can. Take from it what you will. Get some solid fundamentals in ya- get Doyle's Supersystem-- that's a classic. Get Harrington on Holem I (and if you've read it three times and get it then you can move onto II) for MTT play.
You'l go insane trying to win the 3r without knowing what you are doing. No chance. PLay smaller tourneys if you want to play tourneys. Try $1 SNG's 9-max. You'll learn alot. Thecourse of a full tourney takes place on the one table in an hour. Move on to 18 or 45's then. etc etc etc.
And review what you've done when you bust out, post hand histories etc. Always learn from what went wrong the time before.
Oh, and while the math is important, beign a writer you might be more of an intuitive guy...so maybe instinct works better for you - one needn't be a math wizard, but find wht works for you.
And for god's sake realize it's not a game yo can learn or master in a couple months no less many years. Take it easy on yourself. In the end it's kinfda like learning to be a boxer when you've never boxed before. You're gonna feel punched in the face a lot more often than you deliver the blow at first. Only from actually playing will yo urealize how to avoid the body blows.
And like someone else said--- forget the fancy crap and the stuff you see on TV. DOn't even bother bluffing. You can't sell a bluff without understanding the right way to play what you are supposedly bluffing.
Learn. PLay ABC poker. Lose. Read. Learn. Repeat. Eventually it may click....
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I haven´t really read all the good response here, so forgive me, if I repeat, what ppl before said, OK ? Have made my first deposit in 2007, here is my advice :
1) Learn odds, pott odds
2) Read Harrington on Holdem Volume I , that helps with 1), and you get an idea of preflop hand selection, flop textures, betsizing, postflop play, continuation bets, value bets, and much much more ...
3) try out the $1 SNG´s to practice your postflop play, and try to put players on hands, take notes ... After a while it gets natural.
4) Read alot. To get better at SNG´s I suggest Colin Moshmans book about SNG Expert play, or hire a coach, like Jennifear :-)
5) Read Hand Histories. Both your own, and posts in this forum. This is very important, because only after the game, you will have a chance to analyze, if your moves were any good, spot any holes in your game ...
6) Never give up, be your best critic, but keep faith !
Cheers, beat
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first, read some books... I recommend supersystem first, its just the poker bible and while its is old I think it helps to get you into the right mindset to step up to harringtons books. Somewhere after you've read those pick up skalanskys theory of poker. not reading this is just not acceptable in my opinion. second get a pokerxfactor subscription and watch the videos as much as possible. not studying this game is like a closer not pitching until the night of the big game, just doesn't make sense. One of your comments, the one about position, you have to use position in poker if you ever want to achieve consistency. Even if you don't use position in playing your hands just understanding it will help you determine your opponents range, this is very important, without knowing that you have no idea where you are in a hand, so your just gambling not playing poker. Not knowing the math behind this game is poker suicide, you at least need the basics, no you really need a in depth understanding of it. the books I recommended will teach you what you need to know for the most part, pxf will teach you much of the rest. Until you understand these elements you cant truly figure out what your line is in a hand and you def. will not know your opponents. getting into the other guys head is huge in poker, just cant do that without knowing how the game really works. As far as staying at the same table I think that has more to do with the structure of the tournament than the buy in. five minute blinds you move all the time, ten is still often, 15 and up you tend to stay put a while longer. but again without the basic knowledge of poker math and position, along with knowing the structure of the tournament (blinds antes among other things) it doesn't matter how long your at a table because really your still only guessing. I hope this is at least somewhat useful... GL at the tables.
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By
Voland
on
10-15-2008 7:22 AM
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A good starter: Read the three Harrington books.
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Posted this a little while ago, but I think it's a good baseline for anybody wanting to really break that barrier. The parts that are particularly important to the OP are bolded. The biggest leak in most beginning players is indeed that urge to snap somebody and pick off their bluff. Sometimes you will pick off a bluff, but the times you go broke trying just doesn't make up for it. If you don't have a read on the player, err on the side of folding. It seems weak sauce, but stacking off picking off a perceived bluff is a major leak. Also, be able to bite your lip and take your medicine. If you have QQ and bet it preflop only to see a damn K or A show up on the flop, you must be able to lay if down if the villain shows interest...think of the hand in a relative manner...with the overcard flop your QQ is really not much better than pp66-JJ if the flop is K45...would you be apt to stack off with 66 here? Anyways, these are just to get the ball rolling, other stuff comes from watching others and general experience e.g. bet sizing, when to bet, when to bluff, when to fold, when to steal the blinds etc etc.
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Now I'm not gonna sit here and claim to be a great player by any means, but I certainly hold my own and I'll share some tips that helped me go from standard midway MTT spewer to a decent small stakes tourney player.
1. Prepare yourself for play. If eating is a distraction, eat before play. Get comfortable and make sure no serious distraction (kids, etc.) will restrain you from playing decent poker.
2. Practice good patience. If you are one of those who berates player for going into their timebank every hand then you have a long way to go. If you can't handle waiting an extra minute for someone to make a move how will you expect to show the patience to play for 5+ hours?
2a. Be more inclined to fold early. If a LAGdonk is pushing chips early, he'll probably push chips late too...get him when he's ripe for the picking. Don't be afraid to make those small mistakes early in order to set him up for a huge mistake later.
3. Save the fancy play for past hour two. If you find yourself attempting to pick off bluffs, making hero bets/calls and it's only the first 15 mins--you are getting way too fancy. Save the super strategic play for the last few tables/hours.
4. Lose the "i'm just happy to be here" mentality. If this is your attitude you are either playing above your BR means or you don't plan on being a winning player. You should absolutely want to take the tourney down, not just make the final table or be in the money. My friend congratulated me at the start of a final table once...I punched in the face next time I saw him. Save the happiness and joy for when 1st place gets shipped your way.
5. Try to limit your MTT play to 2 or 3 concurrently at the most. When it gets late in tourney you won't be able to play in the vacuum anymore and will have to make moves according to how the players play...don't leave yourself so occupied you have no knowledge of the others at the table. Also, this limits your tilt capacity...most of us can't keep the steaming refined to that single tourney...it's most likely to carryover.
5a. Take a break after a series of poor MTT showings, or a good one even if you feel steamed.
Hope this helps some middle of the road players break through. Good Luck!
--Pye
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