Poker Discussion Post

so does this mean i should feel like i was cheated for a WSOP when i finished 2nd and got nothing?

As usual good work by Nat. Anyone questioning his credibility should give up playing poker due to their inability to read people. I agree with Nat's comment that it is in your best interests to refrain from playing on AP/UB for the time being.

I stopped playing on UB after the AP scandal broke and I learnt the following facts:

1) The AP scandal was perpetrated by one of its owners

2) The same guy is a part-owner of UB

3) The same guy continues to own stakes in AP/UB and likely gains a share of any profit each of these sites makes

I simply refuse to allow this crook to benefit from me, even if this means I myself lose the opportunity to win money on his sites. I suggest you all do the same. He can hide behind shell companies all he likes, but until i see proof that this guy no longer gains any ongoing benefit from UB/AP I will not play there. 

Nat, I don't know if you can answer this or not but what kind of timeframe to you expect UB to make a public statement regarding this situation?

 And thanks for all your efforts in this matter. Most of us appreciate the time and effort you have dedicated to helping out your fellow poker players.

Under
 

"Okay, now that I've said what I can say, I also want to say this:  If I were you, I probably wouldn't play at UB or AP right now either."

"However, for the time being, I completely understand anyone who wants to cash out from both sites and take a wait-and-see approach.  It's exactly what I would do."

These two quotes stuck out in my mind and I can't help but wonder if this is some sort of warning!  As if you know of some sort of pending 'D-day' if you will or the realistic probablity that UB/AP may not be around much longer.  If you had money on either site would you cash out at this point in time Nat out of fear of not being able to get your money out later?

Ty Nat for your help on this issue,

We are very fortunate to have you as un biased pro bono intermediary at times like this...  I got very angry when I read some of the ignorant posts in this thread, but just realized what I have known all along, stupid people are breeding at rates faster than we can track, and it's a complete waste of energy to try to argue with them.

Indebted to your services,

Jeff

Taken from Absolute website:

“Absolute Poker and this web site is the sole, true and lawful property of “Tokwiro Enterprises Enrg”, whose operations are located on the south shore of the St. Lawrence River, nine (9) miles south of downtown Montreal, Quebec, Canada, located on lands known as the Mohawk (Kanien:kaha’ka) Territory of Kahnawake, belonging to the Mohawk Nation."

I think any person of reasonable intelligence would make the connection between "Tokwiro Enterprises" being located on Kahnawake territory and the fact that the KGC is a supposedly independent regulatory body that slapped that punitive $500,000 fine on AP. They would also believe that the fine was a total sham and an act tantamount to making a judge ordering a bank robber to pay restitution only to his brother because he was an account holder at the bank that was robbed.

Please comment on the ownership of AP/UB and the relationship of these companies to the Kahnawake Gaming Commission. I can't see how you shedding some light on any of this would jeopardize an internal investigation at UB into the superuser scandal.

I've been led to believe that an announcement will happen before the WSOP-ish, but it's possible that it may be longer.  For everyone's sake, I hope that it's soon.

Criminals are smart and someone took advantage of a personel breach in that site, but its sill the site's fault. They should get everyones money back who got ripped off that would help alot. Its a great site to play on and its unfortunate they let themselves get hacked. I would assume its not happening  at this point, and they are running things real tight.

threebanger:

Please comment on the ownership of AP/UB and the relationship of these companies to the Kahnawake Gaming Commission. I can't see how you shedding some light on any of this would jeopardize an internal investigation at UB into the superuser scandal.

Should he comment he would become persona non grata.

Why is that? And if so, why would Nat care?

So again, who owns these companies, and what is the nature of the relationship with the KGC, considering Tokwiro Enterprises is also apparently a Kahnawake-owned company?

 but why would anyone want to play there anyway in light of what has occurred. Its note like we (the online poker players) need UBET.  There is plenty of fun and money to be won or lost at other sites.  IMO, you play UBET, you deserve to get taken as you have been warned 1000s of times about that shady site. 

it's hard for criminals to police themselves, even if they get caught and have to stop stealing, obv they will only pay back the minimum if any

 btw, nat has been a great asset to online poker, and i have no idea who was in charge of the AP investigation and who is in charge of the UB one, but if someone like Nat was in charge of or at least played a key role in an open investigation in the UB shenanigans, then it might actually be credible and might actually be taken seriously as an attempt to come clean and pay retributions and make things right for ppl to trust UB/AP.

"Make no mistake about it -- there was blatant cheating on both AP and UB in 2007 and if the players never spoke up, nothing would have ever gotten refunded or fixed."

exactly, and its sickening, because with their mentality, they will only admit to the minimum wrongdoing, and pay back the minimum to those wronged instead of coming fully clean. And why wouldnt they if the same ppl that ran the site allowed and/or participated in cheating/stealing, are the same ppl in charge now.

N 82 50 24:

I reallllllly want to tell the whole story as I know it, but I can't.  In fact, telling the whole story as I know it could jeopardize the whole outcome of this situation.  Once the facts are revealed, people will understand why I can't say what's going on right now.  You'll just have to trust me on that.

This doesn't make sense to me.  If UB was serious about cleaning things up and refunding money to people who were cheated then it shouldn't matter if you tell us the whole story.

LOL @ this being some kind of sensitive question. Kind of revealing about the foundation our precious world of online poker sits on.

I can certainly understand N82's point on this.  At least now we know (at least to some extent) that AP/UB are working on this.  And from a business perspective, discussing anything this sensitive could indeed jeopardize their investigation and would not do us (the players) any good.  In a way, I feel sorry for the current management that has to pick up this mess that previous management left behind.

My wish is that AP/UB would just announce the following to make us feel better about all the waiting:

"Due to continuous investigations, AP/UB can not disclose information to the public as it may compromise the investigation altogether, however we would like to assure the poker community that new AP/UB management is looking into this diligently and it is a top priority.  We apologize for the inconvenience and ask the poker community to be patient while we complete a thorough investigation to ensure these issues never arise in the future."

 ^^^^^^^ would be nice to see from an AP/UB Rep.