Poker Discussion
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CarbonPoker · Full Tilt · Cake Poker · PokerStars · Ultimate Bet · Players Only · Bodog
As I have alluded to before in some other threads I have had some long phone conversations with parties that have a vested interest in helping clean up the whole AP debacle. I referred the same party to Nat who came away feeling the same as I did, that the person was genuine in wanting to clean up AP and oust those who had cheated the community. I hope this particular thread isn't relegated to the ass end of other combined threads as I feel it is important enough to stand on its own.
I also conveyed my sentiment that cleaning up AP would take some time, as there were attorneys involved and actions that needed time to pan out. I am fairly confident that the resulting release that AP was to admit wrong doing was a result of this external pressure being applied. I hoped that it was the beginning of not only the players cheating being reimbursed, but moreover that the site would be cleaned up and the responsible parties banned from further involvement in the site. I still think that we all need to see what final determination/disclosure results from the investigation, but I am disheartened by the subsequent release that stated that it wasn't a rogue insider at AP, it was a rogue ex programmer who was responsible and was trying to frame the owner. Obviously many in the community feel this is yet another backtrack by AP to try to cover up the depth of the scandal.
I don't think I need to rehash it all, but we obviously know that there are not just singular tidbits of information/evidence pointing to Scott Tom, there is a multitude of evidence, including much that has yet to be released. All of that being said, I received a phone call late last night from someone in the UB/AP system....
" What if the latest release from AP is all that they can give you?" "Are the people causing the most uproar over this going to risk killing online poker just to hang someone?"
My response to him was that I think the people who have spearheaded the online community investigation have been more responsible in trying to protect the future of online poker than the actual owners of the poker sites. From the people who found out the incrimintating information, to the operators of the poker forums, everyone has tried to keep a level head about the whole situation. Certainly we have all had our moments of fury where we felt our buttons had been pushed long enough by AP and our heads were about to explode, but we always get back to trying to focus on the tangibles of resolving the situation, not sensationalize it futher.
Here's the problem with the question that was posed to me. The bomb has already exploded and the cat is out of the bag. I am confident that had AP early on released a statement that they had uncovered evidence of an internal breach and measures were being taken to not only reimburse the players but to restore security, well, we would have still been unhappy, but it would have went away.
That didn't happen. Not by a longshot. AP exacerbated the problem by issuing complete bullshit nonsensical statements that further damaged their reputation and by proxy online poker as a whole to the eyes of the world. At every point that AP made a statement, it was refuted by further evidence, then another release by AP to agree with the further evidence released by the online community, but still trying to save face.
Let me clearly state this for the record. Scott Tom is not an ex employee of Absolute. He was at the sale from Excapsa to the AP ownership group, and we have him tied to AP in recent history and I have confirmed from parties within that he is in fact STILL in control of AP. He may be in seclusion in Panama, but his attorneys are acting at his behest in trying to maintain contol of AP.
I texted Nat last night a simple question. If he was the owner of an online poker site and was falsely accused of cheating, how quickly would he have issued a personal statement of denial and proffered up evidence that he was innocent? Obviously all innocent people would immediately proclaim their innocence. Further and more obvious, a guilty party from the highest level would deny all claims, wait to see if it was able to be glossed over, and when further damning evidence came out would try to "adjust" their position to match the evidence while still trying to distance the owner from admitting guilt.
Now let's talk about the real core of the problem. Even though people are trying to put pressure on the Kahnawake Gaming Commission to try to threaten AP with having it's license revoked if it doesn't resolve the current scandal, we simply do not know the extent or power this commission really has. For all I know the Kahnawake group is a mere sham/shell put together to use their historical tribal right to issue gaming licenses. I would hope that they are indeed an intelligent group of individuals who actually have mechanisms in place to deal with issues as complicated as the AP scandal.
When I researched the name of the KGC chairperson, David Montour, I was somewhat befuddled. I obviously don't know the guy, so I certainly don't question his integrity or qualifications, however, on the surface it gives me pause to actually think about the actual lifeblood of online poker being regulated by people who may not be qualified. After all simply being a Mohawk Indian doesn't exactly qualify you to be the overseer of a billion dollar industry.
The David Montour that I found lives in Phoenix AZ. He is a renowned sculptor, and the lead member of a band. I can't confirm that this is the same person who is the Chairperson of the KGC, but on the surface it appears to be him since he is a Mohawk Indian, and because several of the Indian Gaming Commision websites have links to his personal website which sells his artwork.
Back to the question I was posed. Would I be willing to sink online poker just to hang Scott Tom. I think the answer is yes. If the only online poker world I can live in is one where guys like Scott Tom can violate our trust and not be personally accountable, then I don't want to be part of it. Further, I pose the question to the other sites that have a vested interest in keeping online poker viable, are you going to allow a guy like Scott Tom to tarnish your good name and destroy all that we have worked hard for?
That's right, even though I know it is an incredibly sensitive and tough dynamic, I think the only people that can apply the correct pressure to the Kahnawake tribe to forcibly remove the bad apples at AP is the owners of Full Tilt and Poker Stars. They have a direct line of communication with the KGC and need to use all their influence to make sure that the scandal is not whitewashed. Certainly the removal of an owner from his own site is a very complicated and intricate task, but it must be done. Yes, I understand that the actual concept of competitors of AP being asked to aid in the removal of their owner seems like an impossible task, but I know of no other entity that can convey to the KGC the urgency and the necessity to pull the license for AP unless Scott Tom removes himself from operational control of his company.
One last thing. Obviously the online gaming and poker sites have been in operation for years. They all are licensed by the KGC. Can you tell me the date that the KGC passed regulations governing online poker rooms? The sobering fact is it was mere days ago.
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Mohawk Territory of Kahnawake
17 October, 2007
KGC Approves Poker Room Regulations
The Kahnawake Gaming Commission (KGC) announced today that it has passed the Regulations Concerning Poker Rooms.
In effect, it states that, in order to operate, all poker rooms in Kahnawake must obtain a license from the Kahnawake Gaming Commission. By putting into effect these regulations, there is now a mechanism to do so.
The Mohawk Council of Kahnawake recently announced that, due to community concerns, it was important to move forward with the regulation of the industry. The KGC was notified; they completed the task of reviewing the draft regulations, followed by the official passage of the regulations today.
The Regulations were created through consultation with and input from Kahnawake poker operators, as well as industry experts. The Regulations have been in development for about two years.
“This is an important day for Kahnawake,” said KGC Chairperson David Montour. “That we have been able to do this in a collaborative manner shows that there is a consensus to provide industry standards that will ensure fairness and accountability,”
Additionally, all parties consulted are in agreement that a percentage of revenues should go to the community. Details on actual percentages and the mechanisms to collect these revenues will be determined in the short term.
Several operators have applied for licenses. It is expected that the first will be issued very shortly. Among many requirements, all applicants must provide full disclosure, pass inspections for health and safety, and provide proof of insurance. Click HERE to view official regulations and schedule of approved games. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So what have they been doing all of these other years if they actually had no formal mechanisms in place to even oversee the sites?
Are we dealing with the wizard behind the curtain? The KGC has a chance to really show the world that they both have the capability and willingness to govern the online sites effectively. The onus for saving the future of online poker is squarely on the shoulders of the KGC and the owners of Full Tilt Poker and Poker Stars as they are the two leaders in our industry. That burden isn't to be carried by those who came forward and told the truth and insisted upon honesty and integrity from those to whom we give our money.
Chris
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Well said...........
I think this is the perfect time for sites like Pokerstars and Full TIlt to step up. It might sound selfish of me to say this, but I'd much rather see online poker go down the drain, then have AP sweep this under the rug. If the other sites really do care about the business as a whole and the integrity of the game, they should certainly put some pressure on the gaming commision to oust AP.
y083
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fetaman
(Holy See (Vatican City State))
3,182
Posts.
Joined
10-16-2006.
10-20-2007 12:37 PM
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In reply to
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Respect, and genuine thanks to BRS.
As a professional, who has to swear to ethical and moral parameters that societies deem the norm, I can only hold the highest regard and respect for people, and players, like Chris. I am in such disbelief about the 'call with the question', that I am beyond reproach.
Clearly, there has to be regulation, the challenge is in finding credible participants and entities to oversee this, and associates who have the capacity to undertake this huge task. I fear, failure to do so will, in the end, be the demise of online poker.
If that is the case, I will only be too glad to say I sailed the seas with liars and cheats, but made it to land to play with the likes of folks like Chris, and the other upstanding people who consider poker a game of honor, and of challenges. Neither of which is easy to uphold.
You clearly are a good man Chris, and I look forward to the day I overcome some of my own challenges, to be able to shake your hand in person.
Thank you for the inspiration to continue to take the high road in life.
"If you don't know about pain and trouble, you're in sad shape. They make you appreciate life." Evel Knievel
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dTm328
(United States)
326
Posts.
Joined
07-13-2005.
10-20-2007 12:43 PM
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In reply to
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Back to the question I was posed. Would I be willing to sink online poker just to hang Scott Tom. I think the answer is yes. If the only online poker world I can live in is one where guys like Scott Tom can violate our trust and not be personally accountable, then I don't want to be part of it.
Very well written.
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Thanks BR, well said. It's absurd they keep coming out with info and asking people if its "enough".
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I certainly couldn't have kept a level head if such a ridiculous question was posed to me.
No online poker > rigged online poker.
If they can't give us those who were behind this, and by they I mean AP and by extension the entire industry, then burn it down. Burn it all down and a pox on all their houses. AP is to poker what BOS was to internet sportsbooking. Kaplan is awaiting trial here in St. Louis, in part because he was a crooked motherfucker. Hang the folks on the inside of AP who were responsible, including ownership. The pure arrogance is astounding.
Moreover, if Pokerstars and Fulltilt aren't willing to speak up, in part because they owners of those sites are worried about their own liability in the future if public outcry is able to push a site owner off a cliff now, damn them too.
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I agree with Chris in that it is past time for some of the other sites to step up to the plate and force the issue.
We as players also have the responsibilty to force the issue, however. I would bet that AP has looked at site traffic over the last few days, noticed very little, if any difference in the number of players or a substantial difference in the amount of rake being taken in as a result of the scandal, and said, "Meh, if they don't care, why should we? Maybe it'll all go away." We as players need to hit them where it hurts, in their pockets.
Affiliates also have the responsibility to step up and remove the AP links from their sites. Cardplayer has yet to remove theirs.
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I am in 100% agreement with that statement.
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Nice analysis, critique, and suggestions, Mr. Savage. I appreciate those who are keeping our attention on this situation, and trying to ensure that the industry is held to the highest standards.
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Good work brs,i sure would like to see KGC looked into even more than AP,they may be the real problem we are all facing.I for one am goimg to start looking into this as i am canadian.
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Thanks for this great post. A couple of comments:
- I think we might be placing too much emphasis on Kahnawake GC. The fact is that AP doesn’t need Kahnawke’s license to operate. If Kahnwake were to revoke AP’s license, it would certainly be a public relations black eye (as if they haven’t already had that), but it wouldn’t stop AP from operating.
- I think the question they asked you – What if the latest release from AP is all that they can give you? – is extremely insulting. They are basically saying, are you willing to let us get away with some illegal activity so that you can continue to play online poker. This is a false premise to begin with, but truly appalling that they would even ask the question.
- The best news I’ve heard is there might actually be a criminal investigation. If you don’t mind me repeating a post that I made yesterday… “For us to ever get a complete picture of what happened, there needs to be a criminal investigation, not just an audit by Gaming Associates. And of course there is a strong basis for a criminal investigation… people’s money has been stolen. GA presumably doesn’t have the authority to interview everyone involved, such as cheaters, chip dumpees, ex-employees, etc.; they won’t have access to things like phone records, bank accounts, etc.; and, most important, they don’t have the authority to impose any sanctions.”
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They need Mohawk Internet Technologies (ie, the server facility) to operate. And that is controlled by the same people who are involved with the KGC, so they actually do need the KGC.
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I'm not a computer guy, but can they not set up comparable server facilities just about anywhere they want?
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