Poker Discussion
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CarbonPoker · Full Tilt · Cake Poker · PokerStars · Ultimate Bet · Players Only · Bodog
As I have alluded to before in some other threads I have had some long phone conversations with parties that have a vested interest in helping clean up the whole AP debacle. I referred the same party to Nat who came away feeling the same as I did, that the person was genuine in wanting to clean up AP and oust those who had cheated the community. I hope this particular thread isn't relegated to the ass end of other combined threads as I feel it is important enough to stand on its own.
I also conveyed my sentiment that cleaning up AP would take some time, as there were attorneys involved and actions that needed time to pan out. I am fairly confident that the resulting release that AP was to admit wrong doing was a result of this external pressure being applied. I hoped that it was the beginning of not only the players cheating being reimbursed, but moreover that the site would be cleaned up and the responsible parties banned from further involvement in the site. I still think that we all need to see what final determination/disclosure results from the investigation, but I am disheartened by the subsequent release that stated that it wasn't a rogue insider at AP, it was a rogue ex programmer who was responsible and was trying to frame the owner. Obviously many in the community feel this is yet another backtrack by AP to try to cover up the depth of the scandal.
I don't think I need to rehash it all, but we obviously know that there are not just singular tidbits of information/evidence pointing to Scott Tom, there is a multitude of evidence, including much that has yet to be released. All of that being said, I received a phone call late last night from someone in the UB/AP system....
" What if the latest release from AP is all that they can give you?" "Are the people causing the most uproar over this going to risk killing online poker just to hang someone?"
My response to him was that I think the people who have spearheaded the online community investigation have been more responsible in trying to protect the future of online poker than the actual owners of the poker sites. From the people who found out the incrimintating information, to the operators of the poker forums, everyone has tried to keep a level head about the whole situation. Certainly we have all had our moments of fury where we felt our buttons had been pushed long enough by AP and our heads were about to explode, but we always get back to trying to focus on the tangibles of resolving the situation, not sensationalize it futher.
Here's the problem with the question that was posed to me. The bomb has already exploded and the cat is out of the bag. I am confident that had AP early on released a statement that they had uncovered evidence of an internal breach and measures were being taken to not only reimburse the players but to restore security, well, we would have still been unhappy, but it would have went away.
That didn't happen. Not by a longshot. AP exacerbated the problem by issuing complete bullshit nonsensical statements that further damaged their reputation and by proxy online poker as a whole to the eyes of the world. At every point that AP made a statement, it was refuted by further evidence, then another release by AP to agree with the further evidence released by the online community, but still trying to save face.
Let me clearly state this for the record. Scott Tom is not an ex employee of Absolute. He was at the sale from Excapsa to the AP ownership group, and we have him tied to AP in recent history and I have confirmed from parties within that he is in fact STILL in control of AP. He may be in seclusion in Panama, but his attorneys are acting at his behest in trying to maintain contol of AP.
I texted Nat last night a simple question. If he was the owner of an online poker site and was falsely accused of cheating, how quickly would he have issued a personal statement of denial and proffered up evidence that he was innocent? Obviously all innocent people would immediately proclaim their innocence. Further and more obvious, a guilty party from the highest level would deny all claims, wait to see if it was able to be glossed over, and when further damning evidence came out would try to "adjust" their position to match the evidence while still trying to distance the owner from admitting guilt.
Now let's talk about the real core of the problem. Even though people are trying to put pressure on the Kahnawake Gaming Commission to try to threaten AP with having it's license revoked if it doesn't resolve the current scandal, we simply do not know the extent or power this commission really has. For all I know the Kahnawake group is a mere sham/shell put together to use their historical tribal right to issue gaming licenses. I would hope that they are indeed an intelligent group of individuals who actually have mechanisms in place to deal with issues as complicated as the AP scandal.
When I researched the name of the KGC chairperson, David Montour, I was somewhat befuddled. I obviously don't know the guy, so I certainly don't question his integrity or qualifications, however, on the surface it gives me pause to actually think about the actual lifeblood of online poker being regulated by people who may not be qualified. After all simply being a Mohawk Indian doesn't exactly qualify you to be the overseer of a billion dollar industry.
The David Montour that I found lives in Phoenix AZ. He is a renowned sculptor, and the lead member of a band. I can't confirm that this is the same person who is the Chairperson of the KGC, but on the surface it appears to be him since he is a Mohawk Indian, and because several of the Indian Gaming Commision websites have links to his personal website which sells his artwork.
Back to the question I was posed. Would I be willing to sink online poker just to hang Scott Tom. I think the answer is yes. If the only online poker world I can live in is one where guys like Scott Tom can violate our trust and not be personally accountable, then I don't want to be part of it. Further, I pose the question to the other sites that have a vested interest in keeping online poker viable, are you going to allow a guy like Scott Tom to tarnish your good name and destroy all that we have worked hard for?
That's right, even though I know it is an incredibly sensitive and tough dynamic, I think the only people that can apply the correct pressure to the Kahnawake tribe to forcibly remove the bad apples at AP is the owners of Full Tilt and Poker Stars. They have a direct line of communication with the KGC and need to use all their influence to make sure that the scandal is not whitewashed. Certainly the removal of an owner from his own site is a very complicated and intricate task, but it must be done. Yes, I understand that the actual concept of competitors of AP being asked to aid in the removal of their owner seems like an impossible task, but I know of no other entity that can convey to the KGC the urgency and the necessity to pull the license for AP unless Scott Tom removes himself from operational control of his company.
One last thing. Obviously the online gaming and poker sites have been in operation for years. They all are licensed by the KGC. Can you tell me the date that the KGC passed regulations governing online poker rooms? The sobering fact is it was mere days ago.
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Mohawk Territory of Kahnawake
17 October, 2007
KGC Approves Poker Room Regulations
The Kahnawake Gaming Commission (KGC) announced today that it has passed the Regulations Concerning Poker Rooms.
In effect, it states that, in order to operate, all poker rooms in Kahnawake must obtain a license from the Kahnawake Gaming Commission. By putting into effect these regulations, there is now a mechanism to do so.
The Mohawk Council of Kahnawake recently announced that, due to community concerns, it was important to move forward with the regulation of the industry. The KGC was notified; they completed the task of reviewing the draft regulations, followed by the official passage of the regulations today.
The Regulations were created through consultation with and input from Kahnawake poker operators, as well as industry experts. The Regulations have been in development for about two years.
“This is an important day for Kahnawake,” said KGC Chairperson David Montour. “That we have been able to do this in a collaborative manner shows that there is a consensus to provide industry standards that will ensure fairness and accountability,”
Additionally, all parties consulted are in agreement that a percentage of revenues should go to the community. Details on actual percentages and the mechanisms to collect these revenues will be determined in the short term.
Several operators have applied for licenses. It is expected that the first will be issued very shortly. Among many requirements, all applicants must provide full disclosure, pass inspections for health and safety, and provide proof of insurance. Click HERE to view official regulations and schedule of approved games. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So what have they been doing all of these other years if they actually had no formal mechanisms in place to even oversee the sites?
Are we dealing with the wizard behind the curtain? The KGC has a chance to really show the world that they both have the capability and willingness to govern the online sites effectively. The onus for saving the future of online poker is squarely on the shoulders of the KGC and the owners of Full Tilt Poker and Poker Stars as they are the two leaders in our industry. That burden isn't to be carried by those who came forward and told the truth and insisted upon honesty and integrity from those to whom we give our money.
Chris
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I have some questions.
What is the purpose of KGC?
Why have they not taken control of this situation?
Has anyone analyzed the Gaming Regulations which were first enacted in 1999 to determine their applicability to this AP situation?
http://www.kahnawake.com/gamingcommission/Kahnawake%20Regulations%20Concerning%20Interactive%20Gaming.pdf
Has a formal complaint been lodged with KGC?
What is the purpose for the new KGC Poker room regulations in light of the preexisting gaming regulations?
What powers does KGC have and will they use what powers they do have?
What court has jurisdiction over the KGC regulations?
Why is Party Poker regulated by Alderney Gambling Control Commission and the Government of Gibraltar?
Does KGC regulate any public online gaming companies?
How is it determined who is licensed by KGC or Alderney?
Is the fact that Party Poker is a public company a factor?
This AP situation will be an opportunity for the KGC to show that it really does regulate online gaming (it's licensees) or it will show that it is not an effective licensing and enforcement body.
If the KGC proves that it has the power and wherewithall to handle the AP situation, then the future of online gaming may be bright.
If the KGC proves to be worthless in its enforcement then the future of privately held online gaming companies may be in jeopardy.
It is a certainty that US lawmakers are watching these events carefully as the security issues that have been the root of online poker opposition have now risen to the forefront. If KGC cannot adequately handle this situation there may little hope for less restrictive online poker regulation in the US.
I note that the PPA has been very quiet during all of this. Unfortunately, there will be many new questions to address now, just as it appeared some progress was being made.
We are at crossroads for online poker and as BRSavage has pointed out the future seems to be in the hands of a few individuals who are mysterious at best.
I realized I asked quite a few questions above but if anyone has answers I and others would appreciate the information.
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"Would I be willing to sink online poker just to hang Scott Tom."
I'm curious as to why "someone in the UB/AP system" would believe exposing Scott Tom as a cheat would "sink online poker."
Certainly the details of this scandal that are currently public knowledge aren't good for online poker, but there's nothing that has been revealed so far that would necessarily be fatal to the industry as a whole. So what was his point? Was this UB/AP insider implying that hanging Scott Tom would result in a wider scandal that would implicate all of online poker in the kind of cheating that's been going on at AP?
If, on the other hand, his point was just that revealing that an AP insider was cheating would, by itself, sink online poker as a whole, I think that ship has already sailed. If that's all it takes to sink online poker, then online poker is sunk. The damage that's been done isn't going to be reversed by the kind of absurdly amateurish excuse making we've seen so far from AP. Their last "explanation" not only isn't going to satisfy anyone who isn't an AP insider, but actually has the potential to be the act that does sink online poker if the rest of the industry allows it to stand unchallenged.
If online poker as a whole allows AP to get away with this obvious cover up then the industry will have been revealed as fundamentally corrupt and that will be what kills online poker. The last thing anyone concerned about the future of online poker needs to do is advocate allowing AP to minimize the depth of this scandal.
Every last dirty detail has to be brought out and if at the end of the day that kills online poker, then it needed to be killed and there was nothing anyone could or should have done to save it.
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Well said, DL. Another thing is that the question asked by AP needs to be reworded from our point of view:
"Are the people causing the most uproar over this going to risk killing online poker just to hang someone?"
I think the real question is "Is AP going to risk killing online poker just to save someone?"
AP needs to stop trying to silince the mouths that feed them and open up. They are clearly telling us that they are hiding much more than we know through their statements and that sentiment is clear from their actions.
We need to continue to apply pressure and withdraw money while enlisting the help of PS,FT, and PP.
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the entire truth has to come out, the right people need to be punished (severely), and people need to be reimbursed...
the after-effect to online poker, wether good or bad, is not nearly as important as the 3 things i listed.
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The question is not so much what AP is going to do, but what structure is in place across the board to insure that online gaming is safe and secure and which can force AP to resolve this matter appropriately.
This means that there must be a neutral gaming commission with power to enforce complete and comprehensive gaming regulations just as we have in states that allow gaming, otherwise we are simply trusting in an individual entity that is regulated by nothing.
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How does the entire truth come out without an effective gaming commission to investigate, with subpoena powers, etc.?
Punished by whom and how?
KGC, the marketplace or both?
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They are their competitors, ftp and ps would love to see, especially AP, to go by by. Who is to say FTP and PS are not rigged. I would estimate for every one you catch 20 will sneak through. Thus with those odds, the odds are about 3:1 the site you are playing on is rigged. Mike Matusow comes on his show every week complaining about his bad beats, maybe there is some superuser truth to them.
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" What if the latest release from AP is all that they can give you?" "Are the people causing the most uproar over this going to risk killing online poker just to hang someone?"
Although I'm not a client of AP, I've followed this pretty closely. Each day and each detail that goes by gives me a little more hollow feeling in my stomach, but the above paragraph from BRS simply gave me the creeps.
I'm what I guess you would call a recreational player. I started with $38 from a sportsbook account and have made a few thousand but my $/hour rate is in the pennies. I like to play and the whole Frist episode just pissed me off and made me more determined than ever to keep playing. But this is a whole different manner.
There's this little voice in my head that keeps saying, "how do I KNOW Stars, FTP or Bodog or any of the others are any different?" And in the process of grinding out a few thousand dollars over a few years, how many thousands have I given the online sites in rake? Definately enough for them to give one of you a seat at the WSOP, just for starters. Or even much more disgusting, buying people like Scott Tom his goodies and toys.
I'll admit that at first, I was quite incredulous toward those of you that continued to play at AP. I'm really starting to wonder (by me playing anywhere online) if that attitude is the pot calling the kettle black. Just my opinion, but I think there are a lot of people out there like me....not big winners....not big losers...but just like to play. And I think the possibility of the online community losing people like me over this mess is far greater than anything Frist and his cronies could do.
Maybe the poker sites and the people that make a living, or subordinate their income from online poker don't really care. But the fish, the donks, and the break-even guys are part of the online ecosystem. More importantly for them, if you have people like Chris starting to re-evaluate where online poker is in their lives, and thinking how to balance their love of poker with their integrity, they are screwed. I think the time for real and meaningful damage control is getting very close to being too late.
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Personally I think you answered the question. We need open source poker software where the community controls everything. The rakes would drop to 10% of what they are now. Software would by an order of magnitude better too.
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Absolutely (no pun intended) well said Chris. The online community is lucky to have a strong sensible voice to truly express how we feel. Please keep up the well informed and thought out responses that we have all come to expect from you.
Under
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...rather odd we have a Mowhawk sculptor / rock band singer overseeing the integrity of online poker at AP in his spare time....no wonder things have turned to shit....
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" What if the latest release from AP is all that they can give you?" "Are the people causing the most uproar over this going to risk killing online poker just to hang someone?"
I read this and that little voice in the back of my head ( you know the one that goes off when you have KK and someone else has AA) is saying "maybe it is all rigged".
What if this gets to trial and the "RNG" is exposed as not being truly random? What then?
What do you think of an industry where someone that can be a major player in the software devlopment company for UB could also play on that site? Doesn't that seem a little odd? Kind of like being a referee and being able to gamble on the game, dont you think?
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Wow, that is long. I'd love to read it as I'm sure, coming from you, it's very informative and well written, but there's a novel on my bedside table calling my name.
PS: I post this nonsense response so I can look this up tomorrow and read it.
 BRS
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