Poker Discussion
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CarbonPoker · Full Tilt · Cake Poker · PokerStars · Ultimate Bet · Players Only · Bodog
As I have alluded to before in some other threads I have had some long phone conversations with parties that have a vested interest in helping clean up the whole AP debacle. I referred the same party to Nat who came away feeling the same as I did, that the person was genuine in wanting to clean up AP and oust those who had cheated the community. I hope this particular thread isn't relegated to the ass end of other combined threads as I feel it is important enough to stand on its own.
I also conveyed my sentiment that cleaning up AP would take some time, as there were attorneys involved and actions that needed time to pan out. I am fairly confident that the resulting release that AP was to admit wrong doing was a result of this external pressure being applied. I hoped that it was the beginning of not only the players cheating being reimbursed, but moreover that the site would be cleaned up and the responsible parties banned from further involvement in the site. I still think that we all need to see what final determination/disclosure results from the investigation, but I am disheartened by the subsequent release that stated that it wasn't a rogue insider at AP, it was a rogue ex programmer who was responsible and was trying to frame the owner. Obviously many in the community feel this is yet another backtrack by AP to try to cover up the depth of the scandal.
I don't think I need to rehash it all, but we obviously know that there are not just singular tidbits of information/evidence pointing to Scott Tom, there is a multitude of evidence, including much that has yet to be released. All of that being said, I received a phone call late last night from someone in the UB/AP system....
" What if the latest release from AP is all that they can give you?" "Are the people causing the most uproar over this going to risk killing online poker just to hang someone?"
My response to him was that I think the people who have spearheaded the online community investigation have been more responsible in trying to protect the future of online poker than the actual owners of the poker sites. From the people who found out the incrimintating information, to the operators of the poker forums, everyone has tried to keep a level head about the whole situation. Certainly we have all had our moments of fury where we felt our buttons had been pushed long enough by AP and our heads were about to explode, but we always get back to trying to focus on the tangibles of resolving the situation, not sensationalize it futher.
Here's the problem with the question that was posed to me. The bomb has already exploded and the cat is out of the bag. I am confident that had AP early on released a statement that they had uncovered evidence of an internal breach and measures were being taken to not only reimburse the players but to restore security, well, we would have still been unhappy, but it would have went away.
That didn't happen. Not by a longshot. AP exacerbated the problem by issuing complete bullshit nonsensical statements that further damaged their reputation and by proxy online poker as a whole to the eyes of the world. At every point that AP made a statement, it was refuted by further evidence, then another release by AP to agree with the further evidence released by the online community, but still trying to save face.
Let me clearly state this for the record. Scott Tom is not an ex employee of Absolute. He was at the sale from Excapsa to the AP ownership group, and we have him tied to AP in recent history and I have confirmed from parties within that he is in fact STILL in control of AP. He may be in seclusion in Panama, but his attorneys are acting at his behest in trying to maintain contol of AP.
I texted Nat last night a simple question. If he was the owner of an online poker site and was falsely accused of cheating, how quickly would he have issued a personal statement of denial and proffered up evidence that he was innocent? Obviously all innocent people would immediately proclaim their innocence. Further and more obvious, a guilty party from the highest level would deny all claims, wait to see if it was able to be glossed over, and when further damning evidence came out would try to "adjust" their position to match the evidence while still trying to distance the owner from admitting guilt.
Now let's talk about the real core of the problem. Even though people are trying to put pressure on the Kahnawake Gaming Commission to try to threaten AP with having it's license revoked if it doesn't resolve the current scandal, we simply do not know the extent or power this commission really has. For all I know the Kahnawake group is a mere sham/shell put together to use their historical tribal right to issue gaming licenses. I would hope that they are indeed an intelligent group of individuals who actually have mechanisms in place to deal with issues as complicated as the AP scandal.
When I researched the name of the KGC chairperson, David Montour, I was somewhat befuddled. I obviously don't know the guy, so I certainly don't question his integrity or qualifications, however, on the surface it gives me pause to actually think about the actual lifeblood of online poker being regulated by people who may not be qualified. After all simply being a Mohawk Indian doesn't exactly qualify you to be the overseer of a billion dollar industry.
The David Montour that I found lives in Phoenix AZ. He is a renowned sculptor, and the lead member of a band. I can't confirm that this is the same person who is the Chairperson of the KGC, but on the surface it appears to be him since he is a Mohawk Indian, and because several of the Indian Gaming Commision websites have links to his personal website which sells his artwork.
Back to the question I was posed. Would I be willing to sink online poker just to hang Scott Tom. I think the answer is yes. If the only online poker world I can live in is one where guys like Scott Tom can violate our trust and not be personally accountable, then I don't want to be part of it. Further, I pose the question to the other sites that have a vested interest in keeping online poker viable, are you going to allow a guy like Scott Tom to tarnish your good name and destroy all that we have worked hard for?
That's right, even though I know it is an incredibly sensitive and tough dynamic, I think the only people that can apply the correct pressure to the Kahnawake tribe to forcibly remove the bad apples at AP is the owners of Full Tilt and Poker Stars. They have a direct line of communication with the KGC and need to use all their influence to make sure that the scandal is not whitewashed. Certainly the removal of an owner from his own site is a very complicated and intricate task, but it must be done. Yes, I understand that the actual concept of competitors of AP being asked to aid in the removal of their owner seems like an impossible task, but I know of no other entity that can convey to the KGC the urgency and the necessity to pull the license for AP unless Scott Tom removes himself from operational control of his company.
One last thing. Obviously the online gaming and poker sites have been in operation for years. They all are licensed by the KGC. Can you tell me the date that the KGC passed regulations governing online poker rooms? The sobering fact is it was mere days ago.
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Mohawk Territory of Kahnawake
17 October, 2007
KGC Approves Poker Room Regulations
The Kahnawake Gaming Commission (KGC) announced today that it has passed the Regulations Concerning Poker Rooms.
In effect, it states that, in order to operate, all poker rooms in Kahnawake must obtain a license from the Kahnawake Gaming Commission. By putting into effect these regulations, there is now a mechanism to do so.
The Mohawk Council of Kahnawake recently announced that, due to community concerns, it was important to move forward with the regulation of the industry. The KGC was notified; they completed the task of reviewing the draft regulations, followed by the official passage of the regulations today.
The Regulations were created through consultation with and input from Kahnawake poker operators, as well as industry experts. The Regulations have been in development for about two years.
“This is an important day for Kahnawake,” said KGC Chairperson David Montour. “That we have been able to do this in a collaborative manner shows that there is a consensus to provide industry standards that will ensure fairness and accountability,”
Additionally, all parties consulted are in agreement that a percentage of revenues should go to the community. Details on actual percentages and the mechanisms to collect these revenues will be determined in the short term.
Several operators have applied for licenses. It is expected that the first will be issued very shortly. Among many requirements, all applicants must provide full disclosure, pass inspections for health and safety, and provide proof of insurance. Click HERE to view official regulations and schedule of approved games. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So what have they been doing all of these other years if they actually had no formal mechanisms in place to even oversee the sites?
Are we dealing with the wizard behind the curtain? The KGC has a chance to really show the world that they both have the capability and willingness to govern the online sites effectively. The onus for saving the future of online poker is squarely on the shoulders of the KGC and the owners of Full Tilt Poker and Poker Stars as they are the two leaders in our industry. That burden isn't to be carried by those who came forward and told the truth and insisted upon honesty and integrity from those to whom we give our money.
Chris
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brsavage your posts continue to be enlightening with an emphasis on ethical behavior and social responsibility. thank you for sharing your thoughts and opinions with us.
i'm flabergasted that a UB rep would call you and pose this question to you as if to quiet you by making you question your on motives: pretty much telling yout that hanging scott tom would kill online poker, thus killing your hobby/career.
I agree with you on PS and FTP needing to step up to pressure KGC and AP to get rid of and prosecute/punish scott tom andmake right with everyone ever affected by his actions.
i also want all the same questions answered as willy woo
"They are their competitors, ftp and ps would love to see, especially AP, to go by by Who is to say FTP and PS are not rigged I would estimate for every one you catch 20 will sneak through. Thus with those odds, the odds are about 3:1 the site you are playing on is rigged Mike Matusow comes on his show every week complaining about his bad beats, maybe there is some superuser truth to them"
Kasilof i'm pretty sure that your slow or retarded and bad at math.
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8ROM
(United Kingdom)
999
Posts.
Joined
01-19-2006.
10-21-2007 8:07 AM
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In reply to
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There is no way this would be the end of online poker, but likely the end of absolute poker.
You occasionally get companies which are run by crooks in any type of business and those companies, when uncovered, end up shutdown.
Yes, you'll still get multiaccounters and colluders on every site just like you get card counters in BJ and other types of cheats in real life casinos but you don't see those getting shutdown do you? To say that an entire industry is going to sink because of one rogue company is rediculous.
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Chris,
I'd think if I was you, I'd start taking careful notes of all conversations that you have with Absolute Poker, and consider taping your conversations.
It is clear to me that you are being used to float trial balloons for the organization. You need to be very careful that you aren't a condiut for AP/Ultimate Bet ... it is not uncommon for companies to find someone they can funnel ideas through to the community.
AP needs to do one thing very publicly: They need to release the master database file of every tournament that was played by the IP address of Potripper. The only way that they can survive is to become transparent. If they are unable to do that because the principals of the company are involved - and perhaps because this is the way the company has been operated for many years - then it, and any companies affiliated with it, need to be forcibly liquidated by the Gaming Commission.
Short of releasing full master database files of all contested tournaments played by Potripper and Account 363 - anything they tell you is spin.
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You guys ever wonder why the AP 'defense' was leaked? You know the story about the 'rouge' prorammer. Its a friggin trial ballon to see how well it would be recieved on the forums and by the poker community. Lets not let them get away with white washig this thing.
Thank you Savage.
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#1.) I can guarantee you that I am not being used by AP. The people I am speaking to are the people applying the most pressure to AP to come clean. If I was being used by AP my posts wouldn't steadfastly be in the corner of they need to have full disclosure. At every point that I have communication with anyone regarding the scandal I ask hard questions and demand answers, which I believe is what everyone in the community wants. I don't deal in spin or propaganda.
#2.) I received a critical phone call last night while I was at tiger stadium watching the LSU game. I was told that AP is to release a statement this morning that fully admits the level of deception at AP, that it involves the two of the highest officials there.
The statement is to completely disclose to the community the actual fraud that happened, and further the steps being taken to make sure it never happens again. It involves the complete removal from online poker of one official, and at least a one year ban for the other.
Since I was going to be out of pocket for several hours I called Nat and asked him to make a post on 2+2 and on P5's to update the community. We are all anxious to see the official statement.
In the post above you a gentleman made reference that he didn't believe online poker could be sunk as a whole due to the AP scandal. I disagree 100%. It is just now that the KGC is realizing how critical the scandal is to their future. As Nat informed me, the relationship between the KGC and the Canadian provincial police is tenuous at best. The police there have allowed the existence of the KGC and looked the other way for a long time, but there is a split of opinion in Canada as to whether they are actually a legal entity allowed to govern online gaming. Because of this tenuous relationship obviously a major scandal could cause the Canadian authorities to no longer look the other way and cause severe problems for the KGC and thus online poker as a whole. Remember, almost all of the major online poker sites are licensed by the KGC and their servers are hosted at the Mohawk Internet Technologies center.
Chris.
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I just did a quick online search. From what I could see the mainstream Canadian media is not paying any attention to this. I could not find any articles that originated in Canada at all. That is not to say that any Canadian authorities are not aware of the situation but so far the general public certainly isn't.
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tcmeb
(United States)
198
Posts.
Joined
07-14-2007.
10-21-2007 11:49 AM
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