Poker Discussion
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"Honestly, online for me is all about the money. I don’t play online to
accomplish things. I don’t care about rankings and I think people that
spend a lot of time trying to become “highly ranked” are leaving a ton
of money on the table. Most of the ranked players on Pocket Fives are
mediocre at best and half of them are making less money a year than a
$1-$2 NL grinder."
How much truth is there to this?
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 andressoprano: | |
MTT player has a big advantage over the cash grinder: His profit ceiling is unlimited.
Online cash grinders have everything already calculated: I'm gonna make 17.45$ every 36 minutes playing 15 tables, although it can go down to 17.14$ because players on seat 7 are usually slower than players on seat 4.Therefore, taking 24 days and 7 hours off a year, I will end up with a net profit of $103.475'35. As a result of my wonderful calculations, this month I will buy 17 pairs of socks, 5 jeans, and 9 sweaters to treat myself.
I am sorry, but every time I read all those calculations, I wonder where the joy of playing poker went. And please, don't compare that approach to what people like Doyle, Ivey, Antonious, Durrrr, Benjamin and others do. They play the game without thinking "is 5.45pm and I haven't won 3759$ in the last 26 minutes and 14 seconds". They are not filling up the screens with 75 different tracking tools, to see if in March 17th 2005 player "INeverFold" raised 2.5x UTG with AK or had AQss instead.
Well, all that sounds great to whoever enjoys it, but I rather join my MTT's, and dream about winning a major every fucking weekend, and if I run good enough I could even win 2 of them; but even if I don't, I will find the way to finish the year with 100K+ profits. Only difference is that I do have the chance to finish it with 500K+ or even a Mill profit instead.
An ex-backer of mine who's a cash grinder (Aceskay), started to play MTT's in a more serious way. A couple Sundays ago he made the FT in the Sunday Million. I would bet my house that the rush and excitement he felt on that final table can not be compared to the boredom of the endless grind.
/rant.
^^^^^^^^^^^^ this
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Adam
(Costa Rica)
11,652
Posts.
Joined
12-21-2004.
01-18-2009 10:50 AM
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In reply to
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| amak316: | |
Ok guys this has gotten a little out of hand, when I reread that interview I come off as elitest, this is not the case, I answered those questions really quick and wasnt thinking super hard about it, the point I was trying to make was that most ranked players just mindlessly grind tournaments for accolades or w/e without doing anything to get better at poker and they dont try to take advantage of the many routes that online poker has to make money, instead they focus on PLB points. I didn't answer the question this way to spur a debate between ranked players vs small stakes grinders, obv most tournament pro's can make more than 1/2 and even 2/4nl grinders, furthermore theres other reasons to play tournaments than profit.
My point essentially was that instead of opening your 10rs, 50$ freezouts, and 20rs, alot of these guys may be better off opening up some 3-6 or 5-10nl tables, or even some sitngo's. I agree that online mtts can be super profitable on big days such as Sundays and during major series, I play all of these, and there is a ton of money to be made, I just think some people go overboard with playing shit tournaments and leave a ton of money on the table when they could be applying theirselves better and increasing their yearly expectation drastically. Just my opinion though, I never meant to call out the online MTT grinder, I used to be one of them. I also wasnt trying to spur a debate about the profitability of a low stakes NL grinder vs a ranked player lol I havent done any research or care to on that subject.
Thanks for posting this. Having met you, I don't think you come off as an elitist at all. You kind of have to be careful what you say in interviews though, because when a lot of people hear what you say, something that seemed very insignificant to you at the time may become a heated subject of debate (as is the case here).
For everyone bashing the rankings or ranked players, you really need to chill out. The rankings don't claim to measure ROI or anything like that--we're very clear on our site about exactly what they are. The rankings are for fun. Why make them not fun by ragging on people who enjoy trying to ascend the ladder? Their choices simply do not affect you...
I've never really understood all the vitriol that comes out in arguments like this from a lot of forum posters. I guess it's just the same as everything else on the internet (judgment comes from all angles at all times, and usually for no specific reason), but it just doesn't seem like there's any reason to be judgmental about other people's choices. I mean, who really cares if someone else is playing games that supposedly limit their profit potential? A lot of people just enjoy tournaments more than cash games. Some of them may be able to make more money in cash, but choose not to for whatever personal reasons they have. Maybe they're more risk averse, or maybe they like the big win potential.
This topic has been worn out to death over the years. Debate, discuss, etc. but there's no reason whatsoever to get upset about it. Fortunately we live in a world where we get to make our own choices about this sort of thing.
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| andressoprano: | |
MTT player has a big advantage over the cash grinder: His profit ceiling is unlimited.
Online
cash grinders have everything already calculated: I'm gonna make 17.45$
every 36 minutes playing 15 tables, although it can go down to 17.14$
because players on seat 7 are usually slower than players on seat
4.Therefore, taking 24 days and 7 hours off a year, I will end up with
a net profit of $103.475'35. As a result of my wonderful calculations,
this month I will buy 17 pairs of socks, 5 jeans, and 9 sweaters to
treat myself.
I am sorry, but every time I read all those
calculations, I wonder where the joy of playing poker went. And please,
don't compare that approach to what people like Doyle, Ivey, Antonious,
Durrrr, Benjamin and others do. They play the game without thinking "is
5.45pm and I haven't won 3759$ in the last 26 minutes and 14 seconds".
They are not filling up the screens with 75 different tracking tools,
to see if in March 17th 2005 player "INeverFold" raised 2.5x UTG with
AK or had AQss instead.
Well, all that sounds great to whoever
enjoys it, but I rather join my MTT's, and dream about winning a major
every fucking weekend, and if I run good enough I could even win 2 of
them; but even if I don't, I will find the way to finish the year with
100K+ profits. Only difference is that I do have the chance to
finish it with 500K+ or even a Mill profit instead.
An
ex-backer of mine who's a cash grinder (Aceskay), started to play MTT's
in a more serious way. A couple Sundays ago he made the FT in the
Sunday Million. I would bet my house that the rush and excitement he
felt on that final table can not be compared to the boredom of the
endless grind.
/rant.
Thats a pretty narrow-minded view of a cash game grinder....of course cash game players know their hourly rate - if you dont then how do you know what your making/if there's a way to make more per hour? Furthermore, cash is so much more flexible and profitable than MTT's, outside the biggest problem with MTTs - VARIANCE...You take someone last year in the top 25 that made I dont know, say 150-200k, Im sure the amount of variance they hit was ridiculous.....someone playing 2/4 NL will never hit the variance a HSMTT player will hit - even a big 5/10 winner wouldn't, and a big 5/10 winner makes more than 99% of MTT players (outside those who hit a monster score for a single year).....If you could essentially make more per hour and be able to play as short or as long as possible, why would you ever chose MTTs over cash? Why do you think the best players are playing cash? Is someone like AEjones going to have a problem crushing online tournaments? lol I think hed rather make alot more money
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hmmm...
interesting thread. i definitely know where Amak is coming from. too many ppl look at the 1st place prize of a tourney and think, oh i can win $16k today! But if the tourney is a $50 buy-in, and your ROI is 50%, that means you make $25 on average playing that tournament. How much easier would it be to sit at 1/2 or 2/4 for 60 minutes and make a couple hundred?
I've dabbled in cash throughout my short career so far, starting as low as $.25/.50 for a few months, and have played as high as $25/50. I can say without a doubt that the average tourney player's biggest leak is postflop play with deep stacks. I've used cash games as a way to improve my game in those areas, and as Amak pointed out earlier, doing so can improve your tourney game tenfold.
Rankings, just as in all sports, are never flawless, but as Adam said, there's certainly no need to get heated about it. I would guess tho that your average ranked player makes about $150-$200k/yr online in net profit, with the top 10 at or above 300k usually. Those that are backed lose 1/2 of that. And live winnings are ridiculously high variance that I think including them just wouldn't be fair.
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| charder: | |
| amak316: | |
| swd805: | |
| amak316: | |
alot of these guys may be better off opening up some 3-6 or 5-10nl tables
u rly think the avg ranked mtt grinder can beat these games?
yes if they worked hard at cash games and watched vids discussed HHs they definitely could and would become a lot better at poker along the way improving their tournament game tenfold.
ur cute
fing hof
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| z06fanatic: | |
| andressoprano: | |
MTT player has a big advantage over the cash grinder: His profit ceiling is unlimited.
Online cash grinders have everything already calculated: I'm gonna make 17.45$ every 36 minutes playing 15 tables, although it can go down to 17.14$ because players on seat 7 are usually slower than players on seat 4.Therefore, taking 24 days and 7 hours off a year, I will end up with a net profit of $103.475'35. As a result of my wonderful calculations, this month I will buy 17 pairs of socks, 5 jeans, and 9 sweaters to treat myself.
I am sorry, but every time I read all those calculations, I wonder where the joy of playing poker went. And please, don't compare that approach to what people like Doyle, Ivey, Antonious, Durrrr, Benjamin and others do. They play the game without thinking "is 5.45pm and I haven't won 3759$ in the last 26 minutes and 14 seconds". They are not filling up the screens with 75 different tracking tools, to see if in March 17th 2005 player "INeverFold" raised 2.5x UTG with AK or had AQss instead.
Well, all that sounds great to whoever enjoys it, but I rather join my MTT's, and dream about winning a major every fucking weekend, and if I run good enough I could even win 2 of them; but even if I don't, I will find the way to finish the year with 100K+ profits. Only difference is that I do have the chance to finish it with 500K+ or even a Mill profit instead.
An ex-backer of mine who's a cash grinder (Aceskay), started to play MTT's in a more serious way. A couple Sundays ago he made the FT in the Sunday Million. I would bet my house that the rush and excitement he felt on that final table can not be compared to the boredom of the endless grind.
/rant.
Thats a pretty narrow-minded view of a cash game grinder....of course cash game players know their hourly rate - if you dont then how do you know what your making/if there's a way to make more per hour? Furthermore, cash is so much more flexible and profitable than MTT's, outside the biggest problem with MTTs - VARIANCE...You take someone last year in the top 25 that made I dont know, say 150-200k, Im sure the amount of variance they hit was ridiculous.....someone playing 2/4 NL will never hit the variance a HSMTT player will hit - even a big 5/10 winner wouldn't, and a big 5/10 winner makes more than 99% of MTT players (outside those who hit a monster score for a single year).....If you could essentially make more per hour and be able to play as short or as long as possible, why would you ever chose MTTs over cash? Why do you think the best players are playing cash? Is someone like AEjones going to have a problem crushing online tournaments? lol I think hed rather make alot more money
Some people choose to make their living playing mtts over cash because they enjoy them. Is there more money to be made in cash sure but alot of people get really bored playing cash games every day. In Mtts situations, stack sizes, etc are always changing which can keep it fun and interesting for some people. Really enjoying what you do can be worth giving up some $ imo.
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still waiting for the 1/2 grinder that makes $150k a year to show up.......
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Mathclub,
I frequented the 1/2 FR games beginning of last year, I doubt there's more than 5 regs making > 100k a year (pre rake back obv.) The truth is though at that game most of the regs are just playing to be > 0 bb/100 and get SNE, which i'm sure you know is worth >100k.
Also, this year will be even harder, as the FR games on stars have become even nittier than they used to be (heard from a friend whose a reg at both ftp and stars 1/2+ FR, he says SNE basically killed FR).
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alllllllso,
MTT's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FR cash. The two months I played those games were the worst of my life. I'd almost prefer a real job to grinding FR. almost. (and I was one of the bigger winners of those who 20+ tabled :()
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| MarkFSU1: | |
| M8kingmoves: | |
who and the fk would want to look at a 2 dollar big blind or a 4 dollar big blind all day long and grind out give or take a 100k a year isnt many if any ranked player cause there is alot of money they have a shot win win in tourmants that you grinders have no shot at making in those games.
chad
edit: I would love to hear a single 1/2 NL grinder come in here and say they made 100k+ in 2008, when u look at bb/100 at x amounts of tables/day/hr always sounds easy, but who actually does it?...you find me the best 1/2 NL grinders in the world and i will sit at that table anyday over playing vs lil, SC, menlo, AJK, moorman, djk, annette and andy mcleod...
They wont come in here because they are all on 2+2, I know of several cash grinders who make much much more then 100k at stakes 2/4 and under. I believe at least 2 1/2 grinders made 200k this year (including rakeback, SNE~115k by itself) then there are sick 2/4 grinder wwwBTHEREcom who besides taking 2nd at PCA made about 500K+ from mainly 2/4 along with some 3/6.
Simply put there are some absolute sickkkkk cash game grinders that can 24 table 6 max and still put up good winrates. They make a lot more then the avg ranked tourney player.
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| 3kingme3: | |
| MarkFSU1: | |
| M8kingmoves: | |
who and the fk would want to look at a 2 dollar big blind or a 4 dollar big blind all day long and grind out give or take a 100k a year isnt many if any ranked player cause there is alot of money they have a shot win win in tourmants that you grinders have no shot at making in those games.
chad
edit: I would love to hear a single 1/2 NL grinder come in here and say they made 100k+ in 2008, when u look at bb/100 at x amounts of tables/day/hr always sounds easy, but who actually does it?...you find me the best 1/2 NL grinders in the world and i will sit at that table anyday over playing vs lil, SC, menlo, AJK, moorman, djk, annette and andy mcleod...
They wont come in here because they are all on 2+2, I know of several cash grinders who make much much more then 100k at stakes 2/4 and under. I believe at least 2 1/2 grinders made 200k this year (including rakeback, SNE~115k by itself) then there are sick 2/4 grinder wwwBTHEREcom who besides taking 2nd at PCA made about 500K+ from mainly 2/4 along with some 3/6. Simply put there are some absolute sickkkkk cash game grinders that can 24 table 6 max and still put up good winrates. They make a lot more then the avg ranked tourney player.
true, but it's hard to put a price on the complete misery they are in for the whole year, so u gotta factor that in to the equation
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| scarface_79: | |
| willbec1: | |
say they make 5BB/100hands and they play 50000 hands a month (which isnt shit) theyre making about 5k a month plus rakeback which is what...60k+ a year. Not bad id say
I wouldnt say 50k hands a month isnt shit. it took me like 6 months to play 50k hands of cash in 08, and it was painful enough
Alot of 1/2 players will log 75-100k hands a month and 50k a month would be kinda standard for a 1/2 6m/FR player. Also the top regs would prob be puttin up like 5-10k months usually plus r/b so can easily make 60-70k in a year.
I personally think cash players at these stakes are under-rated and i suggest alot of you tourney players to play some 1/2 6m or something and see how you fare over a biggish sample.
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| mathclub: | |
still waiting for the 1/2 grinder that makes $150k a year to show up.......
150k is actually my goal for this year playing 200nl 400nl mostly...
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| crapshot1: | |
| scarface_79: | |
| willbec1: | |
say they make 5BB/100hands and they play 50000 hands a month (which isnt shit) theyre making about 5k a month plus rakeback which is what...60k+ a year. Not bad id say
I wouldnt say 50k hands a month isnt shit. it took me like 6 months to play 50k hands of cash in 08, and it was painful enough
Alot of 1/2 players will log 75-100k hands a month and 50k a month would be kinda standard for a 1/2 6m/FR player. Also the top regs would prob be puttin up like 5-10k months usually plus r/b so can easily make 60-70k in a year. I personally think cash players at these stakes are under-rated and i suggest alot of you tourney players to play some 1/2 6m or something and see how you fare over a biggish sample.
i usually play mtts about 4 days a week, and i only played cash in my downtime etc.. Im lazy as hell as it is, so playing more than 1-2 hours of 4-6 table 6-max nlh/plo/plo8 is really hard for me to do, and if i tried to play longer sessions or play on days when i just wasnt into it would sometimes cost me buyins i wouldntve normally lost. if i was still strung out on xanax, then i might be crushing nosebleed stakes :), but cash games and sobriety dont work well together for me
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| crapshot1: | |
| mathclub: | |
still waiting for the 1/2 grinder that makes $150k a year to show up.......
150k is actually my goal for this year playing 200nl 400nl mostly...
150k is doable in a year playing 1-2 online playing like 500k+ hands. but if u are that good, it might be time to move up, although i guess most of the higher games on stars and ftp anyways are fairly tough to beat these days. so i guess the huge edge u would have in 1-2 might not be worth trading for the smaller edge in 3-6 or 5-10 let alone the stress-factor
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