Poker Discussion
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CarbonPoker · Full Tilt · Cake Poker · PokerStars · Ultimate Bet · Players Only · Bodog
Hey everyone - first of all thanks for opening this and any advice would be greatly appreciated...
I've been playing online for a couple of years and have had moderate success playing lower stakes SNG's. (11s, 22s, 33s). Although I find equal, if not more success, at a full table, I generally play short-handed and a lot of my game has developed in a style appropriate to this.
I've never had consistent success at cash games, but only when I play (again a SH SNGer's opinion) super tight.
I'm playing at micro-levels to learn a cash style. I have a better understanding of the game than most of or nearly all of my competition at this level, but keep running into the same two problems...
1) Almost religiously, I'll get up in a session, fall into a trap (proud to say I'm pretty good at spotting them and rarely to never pay them off as badly as I could). But dip beneath my buyin or take a huge hit when I feel like I'm on my way up....
win a small pot win another small pot win another small pot, lose a big one!, win a small one, win a small one....can I get confirmation from anyone that I need to be playing for the bigger pots and not grinding out the tiny ones to chip build like a tourney style?
2) When do I get up??!!??!?! I've looked for this answer on the internet and haven't seen an answer that explained, with solid theory, the time to get up from a cash table.
I don't want to set a time limit and drop a full buy-in saying "I said I was going to play for an hour" - I'd be just as afraid that I'd be cutting off a winning session as much as staying at a table when it's not profitable for me.
So let's hear it P5ers!!!! When is the right time to get up from a cash game table...the deeper you can delve into the answer the better...
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I think you're going to see mixed responses here, from a lot of players who say they will never get up until the table conditions become unfavorable (like a solid LAG sitting down directly to your left). But imo if you are running into the same problem very consistently, you should set yourself a stopping point before you start your session. Just say to yourself "I am going to play for 2 hours, or until i lose 2 buyins, or until i win 2 buyins." at the beginning of your session, and stick to it.
Nothing sucks worse than starting off a session up 2 or 3 buyins over acouple hours, and then not quitting when you were planning to, and then donking off half your profits before finally deciding to stop.
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Edals
(United States)
1,608
Posts.
Joined
02-17-2006.
10-23-2006 9:39 AM
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In reply to
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Stop losses are silly, TheMayor. Stay when you have an edge. Leave when you don't.
As for OP, is it possible you're so used to playing tight that you really don't know how to play the later streets simply because you don't get to those streets very often? You might need to loosen up at some point, even if it's dropping down stakes just to figure out how to play those later streets. If this is the case, force yourself to play some 6 max or even HU to get yourself more experience on those streets, and I'm sure your results will improve and you'll be able to open up your preflop hand selection.
Just remember, big pots for big hands. Don't make the mistake of hitting top pair with 9Ts and lose your whole stack.
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Mayor and Edal, thank you...
Edal - like I said - I've been playing short handed sng's online for about 3 years. I feel very confident with my post-flop play and have had a lot of success playing a lag style in these tournaments. From my experience with cash games, I've been able to be profitable with "tight and right", but it's boring to me.
(I've spent a good bit of time playing SH at paradise - and anyone else who's played there can tell you - everyone wants to see the flop!).
My problem isn't making fishy plays (i.e.: 9Ts catching top pair) - it's the hand that you will eventually run into. I'm not up enough to recoup when I flop top two and someone makes their set behind me. Is this just a fact of life about cash games? play well, get out before the big bad cooler takes away the buy-in + profits?
To Mayor - if I set those limits...2 buy-ins won...1 lost....or whatever....do you have a recommendation for what to do when I'm up those two buyins and don't see a lull in the action? If I have a couple of ABC guys targeted at my table...do I let them off the hook because my $25 is now $75? I hate the idea of ending a winning session when the situation seems very favorable, but I hate the idea of grinding up to 34 bux when I'm card dead, getting a hard on for KQo, and getting knocked back to $18...closer to the "leave the table floor" than the "leave the table ceiling". Any further thoughts?
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1. Yes, you are indeed playing for the big pots, the small ones are less important.
2. You get up when you are playing bad because you're tired or tilting, and you stay there as long as the game is good and you are playing your best, regardless of whether you are currently losing (but you must be honest about whether you are playing well). Yesterday I was playing a bunch of tables and lost so many buy-ins it was sick, so I sat out for a few minutes and evaluated and went over the key hands: On every one of them I got all-in on the flop for a large pot with a set, 2 pair, etc. vs. a much weaker hand or draw, so even though I had just gotten stacked about 10 times in 30 minutes (I am not joking, I lost 10 buyins in 30 minutes, it was insane. Playing multitables but still, wow), I really felt like the game was extremely good, and I kept playing. After another hour, I felt like I was still playing well, but a few more beats had me frustrated, so I sat out a few minutes and decided that even though I wasn't tilting yet, I could be soon, so I left. I sort of regret that since the games were so good, but they'll be good tonight anyway.
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Oh and about coolers: They're a fact you have to deal with, and hopefully you just will catch as many as everyone else in both directions and make more when you cooler someone, and lose less when they cooler you. They're definitely one of the big hazards, but they even out.
Oh and overplaying KQ, that's the point you should leave, not cause you're card dead or whatever, just because you have begun to play badly.
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pegs13
(United States)
517
Posts.
Joined
02-14-2006.
10-23-2006 11:04 AM
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In reply to
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every pot is important. If the table is going to let you take all the small pots then you should do exactly that.
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Rhoof
(United States)
438
Posts.
Joined
01-30-2006.
10-23-2006 11:15 AM
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In reply to
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Not going broke by losing a big hand is something I struggle with as well. The main skill is controlling the pot size, which I'm doing a better job of after reading Sklanky's new book. You may also want to buy in medium or short and when you reach a certain level cash out. You may not be very good at playing with a very deep stack.
I also play Sngs. I'm always willing to go broke with an over pair or AK or AQ on a A 7 4 board in sngs. In a cash game that is a recipe for disaster if you have too deep of a stack because if you call too much money somebody is going to show you two pair or a set.
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You should play as long as you have a positive expectation in the game and leave it whenever you don't whatever the reason...If you don't feel well, if you're tilting, if you're tired, if there are too many players better than you at the table, if you have things on your mind, etc. then you should leave....
But frequently playing in short bursts helps....you will find that OMHS (one more hand syndrome) can creep up on you and you are playing too many hands without the alertness you need to play your best game...
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You nailed it Suthereader!!!! I thought it was me!!!!
Hi. My name is Chris, and I have one more hand syndrome...
(if I have a full "till the blinds come around again syndrome" is that like the difference between ADD and ADHD?)
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Okay, every pot is important. Some are just 50 times more important.
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I am doing much the same thing...playing low limit nl cash games after some sng success...I am doing well but find that I am losing a lot when I am the preflop raiser with a big pair and an opponent flops a set on a board with no overcards...eg...I raise with QQ and get heads up against a cold caller...board comes 9 4 2..I bet 1/2 to 2/3 pot and am called....turn is a relative blank 942 7....I bet 1/2 to 2/3 again and am checkraised...usually I have the opponent covered and tend to call...opponent flips over 44 and thats it....
What danger signs should I be looking for here? Smooth calling pre flop and the flop, and checkraising the turn? It seems obvious but could I be looking at 10 10 JJ or even 88? Or do I go with the strong signal and fold to the checkraise...I hate to think that is the best decision in the small NL games as people may try this with a lot of hands...tend to call more against tricky players and fold to more straightforward players etc?...all advice appreciated...cheers, pokernut
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Chris,
I'd reccomend checking out some of the video's at cardrunners.com.
Either become a member or if you dont wanna do that u can still just purchase a few of greenplastic or muddywaters videos. They have reasonable coverage across most limits.
Gl
Tks
Mark
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I think cash games and tournaments are definitely apples and oranges...I like both and think you should work on but focus more initially on your strength...always build on your strengths while you work on your weaknesses....so you put your money in on your strengths....
Tournaments require more perfect play so you take less risks than you would in a cash game...but it always seems like there are more shenanigans in a cash game so you have to have a good eye for bs and bluffers and be able to pull some of them off as well...
I may be wrong but it always seems like you try to get away from how you started playing to more perfect play but as you go up ladders to the very top it looks like the top players are playing more like how you played when you started...Crazy thought isn't it...sort of like Picasso saying a child before he is taught to draw is the best artist....I guess what really happens is if you can play...you can play anything from any position but you know what works for you and your reading ability will help even things out....play a lot of poker...try the lowest level of poker just to see flops inexpensively...you'll see a lot of bs there too and your bs detection should improve...
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