Poker Discussion
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CarbonPoker · Full Tilt · Cake Poker · PokerStars · Ultimate Bet · Players Only · Bodog
I realize this may sound like a strange question, but I pose it just the same. I have been reading some books and shit like that. I played the $10 sng's and low limit multi's. My results have been mediocre. I have looked in the books and there isn't anything that will defend against all these lunatics calling everything with everything at these lower limits. Frustration level is high because these books do tell you to be able to consistently 'beat' these lower limits before moving on. I sit and play solid poker only to have my game come to a screeching halt by some douchebag who has 100 more chips than I do call my pocket 9 all in preflop raise w/10-4 suited out of position and catch a 10 on the river.
I have leaped up to the $50 sng's. I am more comfortable in these games, get better reads on people and I feel the level of play is more like what I am supposed to be playing. My results have been better, but I only have a very small sample. At any rate, I am more comfortable playing there, feel like I'm learning more and having better results...does anyone see anything wrong with moving up in limits without "beating" the lower limits first? Especially if you are getting favorable results? Thanks for the input!
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CFH...I didn't miss your point...entirely...lol. I was just playing Devil's Advocate. I know about adjusting to the game, but maybe I'm just frustrated as hell to no end. I have noticed that I am getting all my money in the middle with the best hand probably 85% of the time. The other 15% of the time I'm either shortstacked or tilting, neither of which is a good thing.
I do realize that there are poor players at each level. The $50's have been better games for me lately and its what got me thinking in the first place. Very small sample thus far, and I mentioned that as well. My bankroll can support the step up so I have taken that step. I'll continue along this track and God willing, everything will continue as it has.
I'll always be trying to improve my game and be the best player I can. Thanks again for the comments. I appreciate it...see you at the tables!
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I believe I play at a solid level (not to sure what it is). What frustrates me are the "what I refer too" arrogance plays I make that cost me lots of chips when I know I should fold.
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Agreed. If you can't beat the donks what makes you think you can beat the better players? That logic has never made sense to me but it's one that people make all the time to make themselves feel better. That's like saying that if a losing high school football team could only play college teams they'd be better. No one would except flawed logic like that with regard to sports. "If everyone played right I'd win more money". Well, if everyone played right no one would be a big winner over time and then it would just come down to the cards and everything would even out over time. Even the pros make mistakes and play like donks at times. If you are losing at the lower levels you will lose over time at the big levels but you'll just lose more money.
You want many donks in the game sucking out. Do some math and what hands hold up and what hands don't. I'll take AA all in preflop against 10-4 suited any day. No hand is 100% to win and you just have to realize that. Poker is about the other guy making more mistakes than you. In these lower $ games people are making multiple mistakes on nearly every single hand. That's how you make money. If you're playing solid poker and pushing your edges when you've got the best of it you're going to be an overall winner. Everyone gets sucked out when they've got a huge edge. It's poker and it happens and you just need to know that you made the right play and move on. You should welcome it because then he'll think it was a great play to go all in with 10-4 suited. You want him to be playing hands like that when you've got the best of it. However, if you're losing at the lower levels you need to be honest with yourself and evaluate your play. If you don't you'll continue to lose and be blaming it on the other guys bad play.
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CFH101
(United States)
3,539
Posts.
Joined
04-05-2005.
10-25-2005 1:24 PM
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In reply to
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hey man, glad to hear the move up is workin out . I'm lookin forward to my own move upwards very soon..........
Best of luck to ya and see ya at the tables ....
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I too play the lower levels and usually do well at it (best week was $400 and that was from $5 10 man SNGs at UB) and in most cases I don't play much until the blinds are hitting the 50/100 level and by then the donks are usually gone...I have played the 10s and 20s and the play is about the same and from what I have seen the play only gets a little better at the $50 level but if your BR can take it then have fun and enjoy :D
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Adam
(Costa Rica)
11,355
Posts.
Joined
12-21-2004.
10-25-2005 1:57 PM
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"when you push with pocket Aces and get called by 10-8 offsuit and they suck out in some amazing way...how can that be good for you?"
I'm sorry but........do you know what the odds on this hand are? That's amazing for you...not just good for you. Ask the "good" players, they will tell you how hard it is against other "good" players to get all in before the flop as an 85% favorite.
Bad players DON'T suck out more than good players (proportionally). What they do is call off their chips in unfavorable situations a lot more often. They gamble because they like gambling, not because it makes sense. They make huge mistakes. That's the key word here...
I'm not trying to berate you at all---but when I was a kid and wanted to hang out with a bunch of guys that were gonna get me into trouble, my parents discouraged it. In the end, they let me find out for myself what was gonna happen, but they tried to warn me away. It's the same deal here. Think about what you're saying, and think about what you really want, which is to be a long term winner. Going all in with aces and getting called by 10 8 offsuit is the type of play that will ensure you to win in the long run. You need to be able to deal with losing that hand occasionally LONG before you move up to the games where you might actually lose money that matters to you.
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I look at it like this. Look how Hellmuth plays when he is in the Main Event. And what happens...he gets pissed and busts out. You have to play the table NOT THE GAME!! The table is different every time. You play a table of pros you play textbook poker....you play a table of newbees and plan on getting a lot of suck outs. Might as well toss a coin in a $5 sng. BUT if you want to stay within that money, post and fold tell there are 1/2 the players gone. You get out the hotheads and usually there are more quality players left. Your chips are at a disadvantage but if you like going all in with 9's you're asking for a coin flip call.
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Adam, excellent post. That says it all. For people who don't understand this or don't agree with it then just let me know what site you are playing on so I can sit at your table.
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Bryan21,
I looked in your profile and saw you don't play UB. UB is known to have very good low limit SNG players
I have recently played some $20 and $30 Sngs on FTP and PS and find the competetion to be not as good as UB.
If you bankroll can do it and you have success then do it.
Question though….
So when the Donks are winning money at the $10 SNGs and start moving up to the $50 SNGS what are you going to do then, move up to the $100 SNGS? To avoid them?
My advice would be to play both. Beat the donks, beat the solid players. You should have a balance in knowing who the player is and you should adjust your strategy to the player. The books will only go so far it’s experience that matters.
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I agree with the statement that if a high school football played against college teams, they themselves would become better players/team! How do you know how good you are if you only play 'donks'? I'm sure you'd be a real bad ass on the elementary school basketball court. You can win all the Halloween candy in another week or 2! But how do you get better? Play better players! How do you know your full capacity if you never move up? Quite simply, you don't! You must continue to test yourself and step out of your comfort zone. "Tis better to have tried and failed than never to have tried at all"!
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Adam...thanks for the input and I don't feel as though anyone is trying to berate me. I simply posed the question and am getting the input/reaction I was looking for. I simply asked if folks thought it was possible to be successful at a higher limit than in a lower one. For the most part, it seems to be an emphatic no! I am willing and able to test the waters. I am not a losing low limit player, but I am not screaming up the ladder either.
I was reading an article on Mike Mizrachi and he jumped into the game playing the higher limits. He never played the lower limit sngs' and things like that. Howard Lederer said he spent a few years at the $1/$2 limit tables before moving up. What's the difference? Does Mizrachi's lack of experience at the lower limits means he can't win at them? I don't know. Fact is, he never played there. We can only assume that he could kick the shit out of them because he has a few wins under his belt.
I read something by Scott Fischman that says when he wants to analyze what shitty players are doing, he goes and plays a few low limit sng's just to see how they're playing. He doesn't win them, but merely uses it to gain information. Does it mean that he can't win them? I don't know the answer to that either.
I believe I can do well at the $50 level and I'm going to continue along my path. I can win at the lower levels, but I don't do it as consistently as I may like. I am doing well at the higher level for now...time will tell...thanks for your input, I appreciate it...
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Sugar...thanks for the comments. To answer your question, I don't see the donks moving up! I don't see them consistently beating the $10 games. IMHO I believe they are just gamblers and are playing for the intentions of entertainment, not to make money. I see them as the folks that watch final tables and watch Gus Hansen go all in w/10-8 diamonds and hit full houses and they play the same way. I am not a losing player, but my cash jar isn't exactly overflowing either.
I have run into a few donks at the $50 level and they are usually gone pretty quickly. I felt it was time to test my game and thus far I am happy with the results. I'll continue to play my game and improve it and work to get better. I don't avoid anyone. I feel that in order to be the best, you must play the best. I have found that to be true when I was playing pool, backgammon and any other game I've played...thanks for the input...see ya round!
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OBV. I will be below my skill level until I'm playing 100k buyin tournies ;).
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Adam
(Costa Rica)
11,355
Posts.
Joined
12-21-2004.
10-25-2005 3:53 PM
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In reply to
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You can read my article on Mike Mizrachi in the interviews section under articles. You will see that when he first started online, he was playing 5-10 limit. He'd already had quite a bit of poker experience before that. There weren't online poker tournaments when he got started online....there were no $5 and $10 sngs to try out your skills. You played limit cash games or nothing at all at that time.
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Again Adam's post says it all. You've asked the question, you didn't like the answer and are still going to believe you can beat better players but can't beat donks. That's fine but it's pretty odd to ask the question, get a lot of advice from more experienced players, and then dismiss the advice you asked for. You're not the first and won't be the last to do that but the advice is sound and others shouldn't fall into the same trap of believing they are better than they are. The logic doesn't make any sense to me that you can beat good players but can't be bad players, but to each his own. Best of luck to you and I hope it works out for you.
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