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CarbonPoker · Full Tilt · Cake Poker · PokerStars · Ultimate Bet · Players Only · Bodog
I found a sizable hole in my game last night while playing the Stars 45K gaurunteed... thought i'd share cause I'd be willing to bet that a majority of people do this. It's one of those mental holes that hard to get a handle on and hard to explain... but here it goes...
About 70% of the field was gone... blinds were at 400, 800 and antes were 50. My stack was 13522 so my M was 8. I had some time and didn't need to panic.
My state of mind was this: the last couple of decent hands I had, I raised them pre-flop, then had to release them to post-flop reraises. I also remember feeling a bit of regret because, a few hands earlier, I had comtemplated calling someone's pre-flop raise with A/4 suited. I didn't do it and then it turned out that I would've had the nuts on the turn. SO, I believe I subsconsciously told myself that I needed to pick a hand and stick with it.
Well, a few hands later, I get J/J in early position. BEFORE ALL THE INFORMATION WAS EVEN IN, I WAS TELLING MYSELF THIS WOULD BE THE HAND TO TAKE A STAND. So I raise 3 x the blind to 2400. Someone in middle position with a smaller stack reraises to 4800. "That's fine", I told myself... I was pretty confident I had this player beat and his stack was smaller then mine. I will call him. Then, the small blind goes all in and he definitely had me covered.
I called both reraises, but not because I had analyzed all the information in the current hand. I called because I had made up my mind before the hand even started that this was the hand on which I would take a stand. It turned out that the first raiser had nines and the small blind had kings... "and the Quarterback is toast!"
In "Killer Poker" Vorhaus talks about being very careful to use your "fact filter" rather than your "judgement filter". By this, he means we should use all the facts in the hand to reach a conclusion, rather than judgements we've made or feelings that we have. I think the events of the previous hands had switched on my judgement filter and prevented me from analyzing the obvious clues in the hand.
I've been getting pretty deep in tournaments lately, but the one thing my game is missing is "the Big Laydown". I believe it is because the process I described above keeps occurring. I take a couple hits to my stack and then this process kicks in.
Maybe all I'm describing is tilt, but it seems to be a sneaky form of tilt that creeps in undetected. It's not like the tilt that you experience from getting sucked out on... it's a different beast.
Anyway, does anybody get me on this?
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Greek
(United Kingdom)
257
Posts.
Joined
06-30-2005.
12-12-2005 11:45 AM
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In reply to
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Its really stange. I logged on and was about to create a thread on this exact thing. This is definately the biggest weakness in my game.
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dd
(United States)
1,596
Posts.
Joined
04-15-2005.
12-12-2005 11:51 AM
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In reply to
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Yes I am guilty as well. (Sometimes the little aliens perched over my shoulder whispering in my ear talk me into it.)
Discipline is the key. If your read was that both players would
be loose for this move then it was ok, you went by your read. If
your read was otherwise, or unknown, then for sure it is a lack of
discipline.
:-)
Steve
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Yes MyDog - I agree... forgot to post that in the OP. I knew i was beat when the second reraise all-in came. So, in essence, I ignored my read. When I called, tt was definitely a lack of discipline brought on by several hits to my stack.
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This is definitely something I had to work through. To start making big laydowns you need to use the facts AND your judgement. IMO the situation described above is not even a hard laydown. Just like you said, you committed yourself to the hand before anybody else told you what they had. The SB is making a huge statement by coming over the top of a raise-reraise. He is also raising into a small stack who is almost surely committed to this pot (you said the middle position's stack was smaller than yours, so i'm assuming in the vicinity of 10k or so.)
When the middle position player min. raised you, I would have been a little scared. When the SB came over the top of him, I would be terrified. You're not even on the bubble yet so that makes it less likely that the big stack is just pressuring with something like AK. Your BEST case scenario is the AK which is still almost even money with your whole tourney at risk. Those jacks should hit the muck like they were auto-folded.
I've had the same issues in the past. If you're getting pushed around at a table and finally pick up a decent hand it's like a lightbulb turning on in your head. This is frustration and tilt setting in. You need to have a script in your head you go through when faced with a tough decision. Ask yourself questions about why your opponents are making the plays they are. Take everything into consideration. Go through this script first as a basis and then consult your instincts. This will not only help you make good laydowns, but great calls as well.
Also, you will have times when you lay down the best hand. Say your opponents flip over AQ and AK; Do you really care that you're not in there racing for the pot? Really???
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Awesome post dugums! Thank you.
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This happens to most of I believe but in several different forms.
I used to get affected by watching a hand that I thought about calling but folded. Its decisions v. results right there. I.E-I was in mid-position and caught 22 around the middle of a 30 MTT. I was about avg in chips so I decided to fold. All said in done, I coulda limped in and would quaded up on the river against a two pair and a boat----or tripled up to be chip leader!!! Oh well, thats the game I said and went on to cash and get knocked off by 66 with my AA.
The key is being able to mentally discard your reaction to these hands as fast as possible. It helps me to remember how low stacked I have been and still came out doing well in previous tournaments or something more relevant. Just remember to get your mind right and move on.
for what it's worth,
beauright
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good point beauright. I know I shouldn't even care how I "would have" done in the hand once i've folded... as good players say all the time: "don't be results oriented. be process oriented."
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On a side note about good laydowns.... Last night I folded second set to an unpaired board with no straight or flush possibilities (In a heads-up match too.) Thought I was an a..hole until my opponent was nice enough to show me the top set. Had to brag, first time I've ever trusted myself enough to do that.
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dugums,
damn, nice laydown! i like your idea of a script... how about this? if you want to give me your opinion on this, i would greatly appreciate it:
In my next tournament, I am not playing for results. I am playing to ingrain this script into my head. I will follow it for every single hand:
Facts:
1) How strong is your hand?
2) What actions have the players in the hand taken? Do these actions symbolize strength or weakness?
3) What actions have you taken to create an image for yourself in the last few hands? What is that image?
4) What is your standing in the tourney? Estimate stack size before hand, stack size after hand?
Judgements:
1) What is your opinion of the opponent?
2) Do his actions match your opinion?
3) Is he bluffing?
Conclusion:
1) Risk/Reward. Will your actions match the risk/reward of losing/gaining said amount of chips?
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hey,
this has been a really great post to read, especially before a MTT, or during an MTT when things are slow, to comeback and read this post I think would help people in this situation, i know i get into this type of situation, exactly what is being talked about and sometimes i make the big laydown and other i feel like i married the hand right when i got dealt it,what do people think about covering up there cards on the screen and looking when its your turn, ive done this, but its hard to do when multi tabling. Anyways, very nice post, it was a good read
thanks
gg
johns05
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johns05... i have not tried that yet, but i've heard of people doing it in an SNG. it seems to me it would be a great exercise in working on your process, rather than your results. of course you would be leaving out one of the most important pieces of info that you look at in the hand decision making process. but still, i bet it would be valuable as a brain training exercise.
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There are literally hundreds of different questions to ask yourself. It will become second nature once you begin using them. The script is helpful when you get in a jam. I will list the types of questions I go through typically:
Pre-flop:
Do I want to play the hand? Is there action before me? Am I ahead? Am I behind? How many chips do I have? How many chips do the people in the pot or still to act have? How are people going to react to my actions? Can I outplay my opponent in this pot? If I am raised, how much more am I willing to risk? Am I in control of this pot? What does my opponent's raise mean? What ranges of hands will this opponent raise with? What range of hands will my opponent put me on? What does his bet/call tell me about his hand? What have I told him about my hand?
The script is more about interpreting the answers to these questions i.e.:
Am I ahead?-(yes)-I always raise
And you will not have all of the answers i.e.:
Can I outplay this opponent?-(how the hell would I know, there are 600 people in this tournament and I just got moved to this table!!!)
If the answer is yes though, I am always in there...
Other questions that should be second nature throughout the hand:
Did that flop hit my opponent? Did he bet/raise/check? If I bet/raise/check how will he react? Is he raising on strength or because he doesn't believe me? What range of hands does he bet/raise/check with? If he bets, why am I raising/calling/folding? THE BIGGEST QUESTION: What does it all mean?
Well, you get the idea. I'd have to make a flow chart if I gave you any other examples. The important thing is to answer as many of these questions as you can AND interpret the answers correctly. You should determine preflop a strategy for winning the hand. Do not throw chips into a pot you are going to surrender without some type of battle. For me I never care if a flop hits me or not, I make my opponent convince me he has a better hand.
I used to play a very solid/tight game. It provided a very stable but boring income all from MTT. Even though I switch gears often, I now for the most part play super aggressive. This super aggressive play is alot more volatile, but the bottom line changed only very little (for the better.) The biggest plus to this style of play is how much more fun it is to play that way.
You have to figure out what questions are going to help with your particular style of play. Notice also with my style of play, all of the questions are about my opponent's actions. In general it is not important what my hand is until he convinces me he is strong. You will have to tailor your script to your style of play and what is effective for you. The questions become less effective with weaker opponents, so you might have to dumb it down a little if your opponents are not good players.
Sorry for the long post, there is just nothing to do at work today!
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Another effective way to get over the hump with hands like this and improve your overall game tremendously is to experiment. When your BR is sizable enough to handle it, play your normal tournaments with the intention of learning about other ways to play. Most players settle into a style from the first time they play and continually improve that style. If you are typically very tight, play a tourney completely balls-to-the-wall aggressive, or vice versa. Play a tournament where your typical raise is 5x BB if you normally do 3. But play the whole time this way. This may help you discover your main style is wrong for you. At the very least, when you switch gears you can be confident in doing so. I see alot of people who play tight the whole tournament and then don't switch until the FT. The problem is alot of them have no idea how to play LAG that effectively. (I also don't understand why somebody playing good enough TAG to get to the FT would change, but who knows.)
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