Poker Discussion
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CarbonPoker · Full Tilt · Cake Poker · PokerStars · Ultimate Bet · Players Only · Bodog
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Out in 8th, no big deal. I expected to go deeper as I had plenty of chips at the FT, but that's how the cookie crumbles sometimes.
Here was the scenario in question, from the Final Table of the Stars $150
Some call this move intelligent, personally I think it was a brainfart....
Short stack is all in utg for 5300. Blinds were 2k 4k, it was 1300 for me to call from the BB with an ace in my hand. Now if gobboboy has a legitimate hand in the SB, then sure, a reraise to isolate the all in player makes sense. But to basically give protection to an all in player at the final table made no sense whatsoever imho. He had T high and helped the guy with 5300 chips stay alive. Of course that player doubles and triples up and then finds AA when myself and another player had already moved all in with AK, so now he is the huge chip leader instead of being out in 9th.
gobboboy has been doing great of late, and i wish him continued success, but I think this was a very low positive ev imho.
Dealt to brsavage [4h Ad]
Sinchron: raises 1308 to 5308 and is all-in
3Nemesis: folds
TexDuke: folds
phx99: folds
fumanchu: folds
iamzflo: folds
TopToad: folds
gobboboy: raises 42554 to 47862 and is all-in
brsavage: folds
*** FLOP *** [As 3h 7s]
*** TURN *** [As 3h 7s] [Jd]
*** RIVER *** [As 3h 7s Jd] [8c]
brsavage said, "thats a genius move with a player facing elimination"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
gobboboy: shows [Th 8s] (a pair of Eights)
Sinchron: shows [Td Tc] (a pair of Tens)
Sinchron collected 16416 from pot
brsavage said, "pure genius"
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...I think I am not understanding something.
all inning with a modest hand against a micro stack who is all in...
if the player you are trying to get out actually has a hand that they have disgused
OOOPS! (and you have to give some % chance to this, however slim).
AND
with the real garbage hands (108, 23 etc), sure you have two live cards, and might be in the 40% range to win a pot, but is your added chance of winning the few chips worth the risk?
--tc
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It's more than a few chips.
This is a bit like saying: "I don't understand calling an all in on the turn with just a gutshot (no flush draw out there)" ... if you have the overwhelming odds (let's say call 25 into a pot of 900, just to make it overwhelming), then you should call. You are going to hit that 4 outer a little under 10% of the time, you need to make that call automatically except in maybe a few rare tournament scenarios.
This is a similar idea. No, the move won't succeed most of the time, as in this instance. But if it succeeds, you get paid very well for your investment and it succeeds often enough compared to the risk to make it worth it, IMO.
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i ll also do it basically everytime, unless i have a strong reason not to do so (i.e. the BB being a greater maniac than me). the above arguments (not the i dont understand statements) are all correct, you might not like and not use the move brasvage but i m also suprised that you say u dont understand it..
as i say when i try to teach some of my friends to play , when playing for first , every chip and every small edge counts
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you should update your profile to say "3 wsop seats"
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lol n82 :) thanx for the reminder:D
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Its not something I particularly would do, however I can see reasoning on why he may do that.
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I call bullshit. Let's look at the plus and the minus side of the EV situation that you guys bring up.
First, everyone who knows me understands that I could give a rats ass about 9th, 8th, 7th, etc., I never play to "make the money", but I do respect making intelligent decisions.
The utg player only had 5300 chips. When he moved in, I had 4k posted in the BB, and gobboboy had 2k posted in the SB.
It folded to gobboboy and he pushes ALL IN FOR 47K TO WIN 11300. I had 60k in chips and had him covered, so we can agree the only hand I call him with is obviously a monster. As it turned out, I had half a hand and did not call. Had my other card been a click different, as in AA or AK, then gobboboy would have effectively risked his whole tournament with ten high.
Let's look at the other twist. Forget the "playing to win" ideology that somehow some people quote as justification to risk 47k to pick up a couple of BB's when you hold the infamous ten high. When you in effect triple up a player who was on life support by isolating with ten high, then simple game theory would dictate that you have increased your chance of losing by maintaining a greater number of players you must defeat to win the tournament.
I openly stated that obv. gobboboy must be a talented player, as he has done exceptionally well of late. But his aggression and ability to move chips is all the more reason he should flat call instead of risking so many chips to isolate. I personally do my best in tournaments when short handed as I instinctively play more pots and go into hyper aggressive mode, as I know that many players just can't change gears, and I am "quasi" protected by simply understanding that I am infinitely less likely to run into a big hand at a shorthanded table, and many players plain and simply tighten up at this stage. I also vary my raise sizes to try and keep my opponents off guard as to the strength of my hand, and allow myself to get away from a hand if need be...
As it turns out, Sinchron who had played solid all night and was not on my list of I hope he chips up players then went on a nice run and was the monster chip leader inside of 10 minutes. All this after he could barely go all in for more than the BB.
Forget the fact that exactly what could happen did happen, in that Gobboboy isolated and allowed a good player to triple up and survive and then prosper. I simply believe that a player as aggressive as Gobboboy would have been much better off allowing the table to lose a player and then use common poker FT tactics to chip up and pick his spots better.
Let's also remember another thing. I COMPLETELY ADVOCATE BETTING AND ISOLATING WHEN YOU HAVE A LEGITIMATE HAND. I remember a Paradise tournament when I had JJ in the sb, an utg player went all in, and a mid position player just called. I called also and the flop was T 8 3, very good for JJ. At this point I felt I had the best hand and led out, the other player folded AQ and proceeded to blast me for betting when a player was all in. Now this situation was a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SCENARIO. I bet to PROTECT a big hand and take down a nice pot that I already had chips invested, as I was playing to win and wasn't going to check it down and allow an overcard to hit.
In the situation from last nights tournament it was completely different. Gobboboy risked 49k to win 11k when he had a grand total of 2k invested, oh, and he also had Ten high. He tripled up a player who went on to accumulate a mountain of chips, who BTW, was directly on Gobboboys left. Where I come from this isn't good poker strategy.
But, I still respect you guys opinion, take mine and a dollar and you can get a cup of coffee, I still think it's a bad play.
Good luck all,
Chris.
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By the way Below, I love you, but I think my arsenal is just fine, TYVM.
Keep belowning, and GL,
Chris.
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I read the title and thought I would be seeing BR make a bad play......jokes on me I guess.
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Chris,
There is no way it could be said any better. I agree with you 100%. This is a PERFECT example of the great chasm between philosophies of the "old school" and "new school". The difference in approach is +EV in a hand vs overall outcome of a tourney. You and I, Chris, are not looking at the particular hand, but the effect it has on the overall outcome of the tourney. It isn't about +EV in a hand. As per usual, you perfectly articulated the position. In my opinion, this is one of the best posts I have ever read on this site. It has done more to show the difference in philosophies than any one post I've seen.
I have posted in the past about plays similar to this and did a HORRIBLE job of articulating why their play made no sense to me. I got blasted as being a donk from the "young guns" for not understanding "odds" and +EV. When the whole time I did a poor job of saying EXACTLY what you just said.
This is the post of the year...period.
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yup! i agree that this argument shows the difference between schools. what i would like to repeat is that both sides have valid points, and i dont agree with brasvage saying that he cannot see the purpose of raising (not pushing) in order to isolate..
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Like I said above I honestly think both theorys are technically correct. There is more than one way to play any game or sport well. Some baseball teams are built around hitting home runs and others like the White Sox last year are built around playing small ball like stealing bases and advancing runners. Its the same in golf, some bomb drives but are a bit wayward and others are shorter but more accurate. Either style can win a tournament. To me the only people wrong here are the people who don't understand that both ways of playing discussed here are both winning styles of play.
A.J.
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very well said A.J. I think it is important to undestand here that there isnt really a right and wrong here, depends on each individuals value over knocking out a player vs +EV situations.
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Yes, what he said... ^^^^^^
It is nice to have a forum where we can all discuss poker theory though isn't it?
GL at the tables,
Chris.
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ljrtr
(United States)
753
Posts.
Joined
04-21-2005.
04-22-2006 11:48 AM
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In reply to
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I guess I must be old school because, like you Wachovia, I completely
agree with Chris' well articulated position. I also recognize that just
looking at the hand alone this would be a +EV sitaution for thw
SB. Looking at the overall tournament situation I would not push
all-in - I would just call at most here.
Lou
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