Poker Discussion
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CarbonPoker · Full Tilt · Cake Poker · PokerStars · Ultimate Bet · Players Only · Bodog
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Out in 8th, no big deal. I expected to go deeper as I had plenty of chips at the FT, but that's how the cookie crumbles sometimes.
Here was the scenario in question, from the Final Table of the Stars $150
Some call this move intelligent, personally I think it was a brainfart....
Short stack is all in utg for 5300. Blinds were 2k 4k, it was 1300 for me to call from the BB with an ace in my hand. Now if gobboboy has a legitimate hand in the SB, then sure, a reraise to isolate the all in player makes sense. But to basically give protection to an all in player at the final table made no sense whatsoever imho. He had T high and helped the guy with 5300 chips stay alive. Of course that player doubles and triples up and then finds AA when myself and another player had already moved all in with AK, so now he is the huge chip leader instead of being out in 9th.
gobboboy has been doing great of late, and i wish him continued success, but I think this was a very low positive ev imho.
Dealt to brsavage [4h Ad]
Sinchron: raises 1308 to 5308 and is all-in
3Nemesis: folds
TexDuke: folds
phx99: folds
fumanchu: folds
iamzflo: folds
TopToad: folds
gobboboy: raises 42554 to 47862 and is all-in
brsavage: folds
*** FLOP *** [As 3h 7s]
*** TURN *** [As 3h 7s] [Jd]
*** RIVER *** [As 3h 7s Jd] [8c]
brsavage said, "thats a genius move with a player facing elimination"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
gobboboy: shows [Th 8s] (a pair of Eights)
Sinchron: shows [Td Tc] (a pair of Tens)
Sinchron collected 16416 from pot
brsavage said, "pure genius"
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No offense, but the thoughts you just posted (PlayPerfect) and the thoughts that led you to feel that way are the exact thoughts of the thousands of players that make plays like this be worth what they are and allow actionjeff to win tournament after tournament.
I remember the 24 off push you are talking about, and it was a very good play. You are completely focusing on the wrong aspects of these hands and letting yourself be blinded by "OMG HE HAD 4 HIGH?!?!?" when that play makes him chips and money in the long run. If you can't see that, you have a very long road ahead of you as a poker player.
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I think that is an important question that I have been thinking abt. The answer for me is it depends on who my oppt is. This whole situation becomes very complicated as more and more people become aware of the isolation moves when blinds are big. I can just hear the dude doing the commentary on the wsop sooon. "Sheets moves in UTG with j9 boy I really dont like that play Mike. What, Gobbo pushes with 64o what is he thnking but he got lucky cuz belowabove has a bad ace and cant call. OMG Below called!!!! these guys are all crazy."
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LOLOLOL at all you whippersnappers and your ev quotes. And Jeff, I am certainly glad that you think I am a good tournament player.
Here is reality.
There was no side pot, so he is basically isolating with ten high. Let's assume an almost best case scenario in that he is getting his chips in as a 60% dog. Forget the fact that he got them in much worse ( 8 T vs TT). So at a probable best case scenario he loses a total of 5300 60% of the time, and nets 9300 the other 40%. Now factor in the fact that he pushed his whole stack in, and I have him covered. 95% of the time i can't call, and 5% of the time I pick up a big hand and do call and bust him.
We already know that with Ten high he is going to lose about 60% of the time( at best that is).
Now factor in the other few % that I wake up with a hand and crush him.
SOOOOOO, take all that into consideration, and then all what I posted previously about the value of eliminating a player, and viola, you have my rebuttal for Mr Action Jeff's instant auto push with 27 counterargument.
BTW, I LOVE YOU GUYS, BUT I AM SOOOOO HAPPY TO SEE ALL THIS POSITIVE EV JUST WAITING FOR ME TO PICK OFF, I CAN'T HARDLY WAIT!!!
LATER TONIGHT I PLAN ON ISOLATING WITH SOMETHING WITH A POSITIVE EXPECTANCY SUCH AS OH, MAYBE 6 HIGH AND NO SIDEPOT SO I CAN RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS.
GL,
Chris.
EXPLAIN to me how losing 60% of the time is plus EV, and then another few percent of the time you go broke?
Do the pot odds if I fold really merit a push and potentially tripling up a player and keeping him alive, along with the fact that you could get decleated?
Add to this dimension the fact that you kept a player alive who would now be gone, and you still call this plus expected value?
In my scenario I give him a 60-40, but we all know in many cases he will be a MUCH bigger dog than that. So before you whip out your handy dandy pot odds calculator to tell me he is making the right play, you still haven't taken into consideration all of the other factors, like, you lose most of the time with ten high anyhow, like you keep a player alive most of the time, and you go bust when I wake up with a monster.
GL WITH THAT,
Chris.
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Umm, Imso, I think I have probably won a few more tournaments than Jeff (although) I think he is a stud). So to insinuate that my opinion on the hand leads one down the path to poker ruin and loss is just a little short of fucking ridiculous.
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Also, I will add this, and I mean this from the heart.
I have seen countless young players come and go, get hot, be the next superstar blah blah blah. Most of them have a few common denominators, and that's heart, passion, brains, and most importantly aggression.
Here's the problem. Many fade into the sunset, because they eventually hit that run where they run cold, have some bad luck, cards don't break even, and bamm, they lose the thing that gave them their edge, and that was heart. They start to question every facet of their game and eventually realize that that many players have talent, that an awful lot of players can win on any given day, and they give up.
I have been an Action Jeff, an Imsolucky0, a Bel0wab0ve... I love you guys, but seriously, I preach a style that is hyper aggressive in the right situation. The thing I love about you guys is that you still have the oomph to play a zillion tournaments day in and day out. But that can and will change. When it does, I hope your success and style doesn't tail off.
FUCK poker. You heard me. True ownage is when you rule it, and not the other way around. I sincerely hope you guys are still posting in a few years about how your tearing it up. Lord knows there is more than one way to skin a cat, I just tend to believe that many of the exuberant youth will think a tad different in the future.
So, we agree to disagree, all you old farts take my advice, all you young megalomaniacs go the other way, and please, continue to move all in on me with ten high, as trust me, that's a positive ev for me.
Gl,
Chris.
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No one's saying you aren't winning... the question is, could you be winning more if you added plays like this to your game?
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I think brsavage is my new favorite player.
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The whole point is you are incorrect to assume that over the long run this play would make him money. As a matter of fact, even if it's a positive EV play, I'd think that over the course of 10 years the play would cost him money, because he's so talented. He was a disgracefull suckout away from the rail, for what? He's good enough to win without jamming every time the ev makes it ok.
Poker is not an exact science. Poker, is not JUST the math.
To put it more clearly, if Dan Harrington played 1,000 sit n' gos against 8 drunken opponnents that have never played poker before, there would be several examples of + ev plays that would cost him real dollars.
As far as me having a long way to go as a poker player, I've been very successful both live and online and I think I probably have a very good ROI (combining live play, MKSteel12 my old user ID, and PlayPerfect my new one). I also have a wife, 12 year old daughter, career, and $550,000 mortgage, so I can't play very often and will probably never earn huge amounts of money online.
I get agressive near the bubble, raise with junk, and re-raise with junk. I just don't do it hap hazardly. I think Action Jeff is one of the most amazing players online, I also think that if he was just A LITTLE more selectively aggressive, he'd win more than he already does.
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Well, actually, NO.
I am winning at the highest rate of my life. I attribute this to being focused when I play, experience, and really paying attention and understanding situations clearly whenthey present themselves.
If I played full time, as much as many of my young envied brethren, then I do believe I would crusheth many tournaments... the fact is that I also would then lose interest, as playing poker too much makes me want to throw up. I like movies, I like dinner, I like friends, I like a social life, and I LOVE my family. I win plenty, so why ruin it?
The problem Nat is that you don't know me, yet you seemingly always post a contrary opinion to anything that I state, maybe I imagine it. When I was consumed by poker I played just as much as anyone on the planet, and I won just as many tournaments as the young bucks, and most were what we would call majors.
You ever stop to think that maybe you could learn something other than just math? The devil is in the details, and you guys can gloriously quote your ev train till your blue in the face, but I think I have had an extended look at what real ev is, and it isn't always in the pure pot odds, it's in understanding tactics to best allow you to win or finish in the top 3 of a tournament.
I do love your db though, I just think your a lil anal. Go drink a maragarita, and celebrate earth day or something.
Gl,
Chris.
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I was replying to playperfect with my previous post, not you BR.
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"He's good enough to win without jamming every time the ev makes it ok."
He wins BECAUSE he jams every time he sees a +EV opportunity, not in spite of it. These are the moves that make him good and that you think allow him to pass up these opportunities (contradicts kinda huh?).
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O.K. Here's a question for the EV/ICM math nerd types. If brsavage knows that gobboboy will make that move with any two and brsavage has gobbo outstacked by 2:1 approximately, what are the range of hands that brsavage should call gobbo's all-in with--i.e., it's positive EV to call?
Maybe we need Mr. Sheets to do some math voodoo stuff to give us the range of hands. My gut instinct is that A5 is just short of the cut-off for the range.
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I understand that what makes Action Jeff great is his aggressiveness, willingness to take advantage of ev, and disregard for his tournament life. These are traits that every great player posseses.
Where the thought process becomes dangerous, not to mention incorrect, is when I read things like, "That's an auto push for Ozzy with 2-7 off," or "It's a push with any two cards," when guys are jamming in 20+ BBs.
Every hand and every situation is different, and when you're talking about tournament poker, there's more to a decision than EV.
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I would disagree that 60% of the time Ten High is behind.... UTG is pushing ANY two.
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