Poker Discussion
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CarbonPoker · Full Tilt · Cake Poker · PokerStars · Ultimate Bet · Players Only · Bodog
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Out in 8th, no big deal. I expected to go deeper as I had plenty of chips at the FT, but that's how the cookie crumbles sometimes.
Here was the scenario in question, from the Final Table of the Stars $150
Some call this move intelligent, personally I think it was a brainfart....
Short stack is all in utg for 5300. Blinds were 2k 4k, it was 1300 for me to call from the BB with an ace in my hand. Now if gobboboy has a legitimate hand in the SB, then sure, a reraise to isolate the all in player makes sense. But to basically give protection to an all in player at the final table made no sense whatsoever imho. He had T high and helped the guy with 5300 chips stay alive. Of course that player doubles and triples up and then finds AA when myself and another player had already moved all in with AK, so now he is the huge chip leader instead of being out in 9th.
gobboboy has been doing great of late, and i wish him continued success, but I think this was a very low positive ev imho.
Dealt to brsavage [4h Ad]
Sinchron: raises 1308 to 5308 and is all-in
3Nemesis: folds
TexDuke: folds
phx99: folds
fumanchu: folds
iamzflo: folds
TopToad: folds
gobboboy: raises 42554 to 47862 and is all-in
brsavage: folds
*** FLOP *** [As 3h 7s]
*** TURN *** [As 3h 7s] [Jd]
*** RIVER *** [As 3h 7s Jd] [8c]
brsavage said, "thats a genius move with a player facing elimination"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
gobboboy: shows [Th 8s] (a pair of Eights)
Sinchron: shows [Td Tc] (a pair of Tens)
Sinchron collected 16416 from pot
brsavage said, "pure genius"
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Why would you just call with JJ there? Why do you WANT the main pot to be 3 way?
If I'm gonna play there, I woulda raised JJ preflop since it does so much better heads up than it does 3-way.
If the other guy calls, fine than you can play for a sidepot which might just be worth more than the original pot anyways.
The way you played it makes you go into check/fold mode against any flop with Q-A.
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BR said the play was plus EV in the original thread. Perhaps, however, the cooperation play is MORE +EV. That is certainly a possibility. If the EV of pushing is say 100 but the EV of just calling is 150, then obviously calling is a better idea. Isn't it possible that potentially more EV was lost by pushing? Either way, it is a close call without a doubt. Anyone who thinks this is clear cut is probably wrong.
EDIT: BTW, I am referring to tournament EV, not hand EV.
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First of all, I called you out for your condescending attitude towards many players who are long term winners. The fact that you are a talented player does not give you the right to blatantly run over people.
2nd. Your the cumquat who refuses to acknowledge my whole point. I have always understood the math. I just think the math is iffucking relevant when your at a final table and your minor ev move allows a player to be protected from elimination with ten high. You seem agitated that I won't change my position, and keep acting like I don't have enough brain cells to comprehend you and your buddies scientific explanation of why you are right. I have addressed this 5 times now, I believe eliminating a player far outweighs the minor ev your math provides for, and in the end, I believe it is an overall negative play.
3rd. I have done more in private to help young players than you have knowledge of. I have given much of my time in returning private messages and emails, and I have NEVER CHARGED A DIME. I made reference to your age because, frankly, I felt you were being very disrespectful to players who have done nothing to deserve your snide remarks. I assumed it had to be out of immaturity, and not out of conscoius choice of being a dick.
4th. You seriously mention that I insulted the 2+2 forum, when YOU were the asshole that made specific reference to having a 2+2 poster come explain the math to us ignorant pocket fivers. All of this thru your clever use of inference and innuendo. My response was REACTIONARY to yours. 2+2 was never even mentioned by me except in response to your post which originally brought that forum into our discussion. Two players subsequently made mention that you may have been teasing. I personally do not believe that, I believe it was just another subtle AJ jab without directly saying it. That still being said, I apologized twice if you were in fact teasing.. without hesitation I posted that, but you fail to make mention of that.
5th I'll say it again, I think you are a brilliant player, to say otherwise would be nonsensical. However, I think you clearly overestimate your value to the planet earth, and when poker let's you down you will regret all of the negative comments that you made about players who did not deserve your disrespect.
So, again. I complimented you in the same thread that I rebutted your statements. I guess i'm good like that.
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Hello all, I am not one to post very much on this forum but I visit on a regular basis. This has been one of the few posts that has sparked a +ev discussion about a poker situation and I am very glad to see this happening. Threads like this one entice a player like me to keep coming back to this message board and I would like to see more in the future.
However, IMO some of the posters on this thread (and the site) need to learn how to agree to disagree, it can be more beneficial than you might think. That bit of advice is without a doubt more +ev than the push from the sb....
L8
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I'm not savvy enough to comment on the play, but on this part of BR's statement:
"3rd. I have done more in private to help young players than you have knowledge of. I have given much of my time in returning private messages and emails, and I have NEVER CHARGED A DIME. I made reference to your age because, frankly, I felt you were being very disrespectful to players who have done nothing to deserve your snide remarks. I assumed it had to be out of immaturity, and not out of conscoius choice of being a dick."
Absolutely true! I'm one of the "young" players that BR has taken the time to respond to an email. He is a class act as well as an excellent poker player. Thank you, BR.
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First stop looking at ur cards and look at yer table image your probably tighter than toby ass and the only hands u call with are aa kk maybe ak qq but i doubt it. He mad a beauty play to get your scared but out and go heads up against a all in with no chance to loose anymore chips. I personnally like half his stack rather than all in but hey thats me.
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im 100% with BR on this, its defintely a -ev play. Please keep on making it.
T
I
A
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