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Harvard Ponders Just What It Takes To Excel at Poker
Johnn1Mo (United States) 158 Posts. Joined 11-11-2005.
05-03-2007 8:38 AM

Harvard Ponders
Just What It Takes
To Excel at Poker

Prof. Nesson and Others
Stress the Skill Involved;
Why It's a Legal Issue
By NEIL KING JR.
May 3, 2007; Page A1

CAMBRIDGE, Mass. -- Four-time poker champion Howard Lederer makes a plush living playing cards. His scholarly calm at the table has earned him the title "The Professor," along with $3.3 million in tournament prize money.

Just don't call him lucky. To describe poker as anything but a game of skill, he says, "is just wrong."

Now poker fans in academe are jumping in to help prove that point, most recently with a daylong "strategy session" at the Harvard Faculty Club bringing together poker pros like Mr. Lederer, game theorists, statisticians, law students and gambling lobbyists.

[Howard Lederer]

"The purpose of this meeting," said Harvard University Law School professor Charles Nesson, kicking things off beneath the dusty visages of long-dead Harvard poets and divines, "is to legitimate poker." To do that, Prof. Nesson and his fellows hope to show, statistically, philosophically, legally and otherwise, that poker is a game in which skill predominates over chance.

It is the straight flush of poker theory -- and just about as elusive.

The skill debate has been a preoccupation in poker circles since September, when Congress barred the use of credit cards for online wagers. Horse racing and stock trading were exempt, but otherwise the new law hit any "game predominantly subject to chance." Included among such games was poker, which is increasingly played on Internet sites hosting players from all over the world.

By making the case for poker as a skill, aficionados hope to roll back the law, and even win the game newfound freedoms in states where wagering on poker is currently banned.

LUCK OR SKILL?
 
[Vote]1  Vote:2 Is poker predominantly a game of luck or a game of skill? Discuss in a reader forum.3
 

Poker has been on a tear for years in the U.S. and is "rampant, in a good way," among Harvard law students, Prof. Nesson says. Poker-players-turned-celebrities vie for million-dollar purses on ESPN and the Travel Channel. Millions of Americans now play the game with some regularity. The Department of Labor last year recognized "professional poker player" as an official occupation. Even Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, who sent his regrets for the Harvard session, plays in a regular game.

Yet poker, in many corners, retains its image as a smoky pastime of gamblers and cheats. More pernicious to some is its modern incarnation on the Web, where play also boomed until Congress passed its September ban.

Supporters of the law, which was slipped into a port-security bill, argued that Internet casinos feed addictive gambling and lead college students to rack up huge losses on their credit cards. They also cited concerns that the sites were run by offshore companies outside the purview of U.S. law.

Leading a Counterattack

Mr. Lederer and his sister, Annie Duke, one of the country's best female poker players, are helping lead the counterattack. Joining them is the newly muscular Poker Players Alliance, the game's lobbying group, whose membership has swelled to more than 400,000. The group has targeted unsympathetic lawmakers and launched letter-writing campaigns to overturn the ban. The group's Web site features the photo of a brain and the line, "It's Better to Be Skillful Than Lucky."

Now academics like Prof. Nesson are joining the cause. "It's about time poker became a subject of academic inquiry," says the Harvard professor, an amateur poker buff who at 67 buzzes about campus on a moped.

Prof. Nesson has jumped on the poker cause largely as a personal-freedom campaign. He says he has received no money from the industry, but the Poker Players Alliance did pay for the faculty club rental and food for the day.

POKER RESOURCES
 
Harvard Law professor Charles Nesson, who hosted a recent strategy session on poker, created a Web page for the gathering4, including audio from the day-long event.
The game's main lobbying group, the Poker Players Alliance, makes its own brief case for poker as a skill5.
Annie Duke, one of the game's best-known players, writes a blog, where she argues that her game is mainly skill6.
Ms. Duke's brother, Howard Lederer, also a repeat poker champion, ascribes some of his success in the game to mastering a Zen-like calm7.
For more information on economist Steven Levitt's research into poker skills, visit Pokernomics8.

Poker is at heart a betting game in which players compete against one another for a growing pot of money. Players win either by getting the others to fold their cards or by having the best hand, ranked according to a hierarchy. Poker's name most likely derives from an ancient French bluffing game called poque, from the antiquated French verb poquer, which meant "to bet."

The luck-versus-skill debate is a lot more recent. Under U.S. common law, games that are predominantly chance are considered gambling, while those that are mainly skill are not.

In 1989, in a case enthusiasts love to cite, a California circuit-court judge ruled in favor of poker as a skill, allowing the state's famed card rooms to stay in business. But in 2005, a North Carolina state judge smacked down a local card club, calling poker a game of chance. Case law in other states is just as mixed. Judges in Colorado, for instance, have taken both sides.

'Mini-Version of Life'

Prof. Nesson's gathering quickly agreed that poker is clearly a game that some excel at and others don't. "Poker is a very structured mini-version of life -- and also an incredibly difficult game to get good at," says Mr. Lederer, who took up cards at 18 and dropped out of Columbia University two years later to play full time. Both he and his sister now consult for online poker sites, and both attended the Harvard gathering.

Mastering the game, particularly the dominant version these days known as Texas Hold 'Em, can take years. Its complexity of betting and bluffs has long exasperated computer programmers who have tried to mimic the best players.

But defining that skill is just as tough. Is it an ability to bluff? Is it largely a mathematical knack at calculating the odds of getting a certain hand, and then betting accordingly? Or is it a combination of those skills?

Scientific Solution

Some hope the solution can be found scientifically. Jay Kadane, a statistician at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, doesn't play the game. But he was drawn to the Harvard session by the idea that one could show, statistically, what makes some players better than others. The online poker companies have reams of minute-by-minute data on the decisions and bets of thousands of players, and Mr. Kadane has pitched to potential sponsors a project that would crunch those data in search of proof that poker is a game of skill.

University of Chicago economist Steven Levitt, who co-wrote the best-selling book "Freakonomics," is already in the midst of a similar quest. His project, called Pokernomics, seeks to analyze the electronic data from more than a million hands of Texas Hold 'Em with the goal, he says, "of understanding what makes a person a good or bad poker player." Mr. Levitt, who is doing the project without assistance from the poker industry, has invited players to email in their own electronic data from games on the Internet but wants a minimum of 10,000 hands per player so he can analyze their moves in depth.

[Winning Bet Graphic]

In the absence for now of any scientific proof, Prof. Nesson urged the group to come up with more legalistic arguments. Ms. Duke has won more than $3 million in tournament prize money. One sure sign that poker is a skill, she says, is that unlike roulette or the lottery or betting on football, "you can purposely lose at poker if you choose." To lose requires skill, she says -- or at least an ability to affect the outcome.

Her brother offers another proposal, which he suggests might impress a future judge. The "vast majority" of high-betting poker hands, he says, are decided after all players except the winner have folded. So if no one shows his cards, Mr. Lederer says, "can you legally argue that the outcome was determined by luck?"

The poker industry may get lucky anyway. Last week, Rep. Barney Frank, the Massachusetts Democrat who chairs the House Financial Services Committee, introduced a bill the poker industry supports to overturn the September ban and regulate online gambling. Democratic Rep. Robert Wexler says he has drafted a more specific bill after being besieged by poker players in his South Florida district. "My bill will say that poker is a skill," he says.

After his strategy session wrapped up, Prof. Nesson led the group to a bar for drinks. He was delighted, he said, at how the group "pushed game theory to the level of metaphor." Sipping a scotch on the rocks, he tossed out the idea of creating a poker university, with himself as one of its teachers. Then, "we could infuse all levels of education with the skills that come from poker," he said.

 
 
 

peterpjames (United States) 1,044 Posts. Joined 05-19-2006.
05-03-2007 8:50 AM - In reply to

You guys need to post in their forums and respond to guys like this:
---

The game is clearly luck.

The betting strategy may involve skill if the game involves people around a table where the ability to bluff and read other players should improve the results. Online betting pretty much eliminates this.

Betting strategy skills do work with Black Jack, IF the deck is not shuffled between hands, and a player follows the Thorpe strategy.

Betting strategies will not work where the face cards represent unique values, unlike Black Jack where all face cards are "10" and the Ace can vary, in reaching a fixed point goal.

So, I conclude online betting in poker is 99% luck.

There is almost no skill involved.


Squirrel God (Canada) 17 Posts. Joined 11-17-2006.
05-03-2007 8:51 AM - In reply to

People that don't play poker make me giggle.

JLucky34 (United States) 902 Posts. Joined 08-07-2005.
05-03-2007 8:53 AM - In reply to

good to hear, hopefully they can come up with some interesting theory on how to prove what we already know!!!

shortstack86 (United States) 134 Posts. Joined 04-29-2007.
05-03-2007 9:38 AM - In reply to

why if poker is all luck, do spend your time making hundreds of post on a site dedicated to online poker strategy. Yes luck plays a roll in poker, as does the chance of inclement weather or poor field conditions in sports. Even the beggining of a football game begins w/ a coin flip. Poker is a game of descicion making, if you consistantly make the right descision based on the information you have, you in the long run will win.

brsavage (United States) 2,871 Posts. Joined 01-25-2005.
05-03-2007 9:48 AM - In reply to

Wow, sound slike your upset that a lot of players are just consistently "luckier" than you.

Johnn1Mo (United States) 158 Posts. Joined 11-11-2005.
05-03-2007 9:53 AM - In reply to

Guys,

I believe the post by Peterpjames was copied from the hyperlinked forum within the article.  It is not his statement but that of a poster within the forum linked within the above article. 


Similiar to this one from an oppsoing view within the same forum:

The luck of the cards, or even the luck of the memory (and poker isn't a mathematical determination analogous to blackjack; it requires an entirely different set of equations to consider. Memory isn't at the core.) doesn't begin to address the skills of the best poker players. Good players are capable of getting weaker players with better hands to fold. People play the game, not robots or computers, so a host of other psychological and emotional factors are involved.

The ability to "read" people, and surmise the corresponding strength of their hands, regardless of how it compares to your own hand even, can help players win pots. Aggressive and unpredictable play by individual players can help win pots. Dedicated poker players build on their experience, improve and refine their skills relative to other players, and ultimately win pots more often than they lose. All these factors are unrelated and undetermined by luck.

There are those instances where a poker player makes all the right decisions (from a purely mathematical and "best practices" perspective), and may still end up losing the hand based on the how the cards are ultimately dealt. It's what makes it poker. But that isn't the predominant result in the game -- and its why many professional players excel and consistently win on average in the long run.

Like any game or sport, there is a bit of chance, or luck, involved. But it's far from the driving dynamic in the game, and less than 30% of a factor for the best players.

TheJacob (United States) 1,855 Posts. Joined 01-04-2006.
05-03-2007 9:59 AM - In reply to

99% luck...
Damn all these people with 100%++ ROIs in MTTs are really effing lucky eh?

gladi8tor333 (United States) 725 Posts. Joined 02-03-2006.
05-03-2007 3:37 PM - In reply to

The poker industry may get lucky anyway. Last week, Rep. Barney Frank, the Massachusetts Democrat who chairs the House Financial Services Committee, introduced a bill the poker industry supports to overturn the September ban and regulate online gambling. Democratic Rep. Robert Wexler says he has drafted a more specific bill after being besieged by poker players in his South Florida district. "My bill will say that poker is a skill," he says.

I read this article this morning at work and was excited by this one paragraph which seems to have gotten lost in this thread.  I truly believe that the online gambling ban will be lifted.  If may take a few months, but I am willing to wait.

IBGrindin (United States) 2,805 Posts. Joined 07-18-2005.
05-03-2007 4:14 PM - In reply to

Very good read.

tbt4653 (United States) 51 Posts. Joined 10-09-2006.
05-03-2007 8:23 PM - In reply to

The underlying premise of this article is incorrect.  The Act defines a bet as including the staking of something of value on "a game subject to chance", not "a game predominantly subject to chance".  The "predominantly subject to chance" language is part of the definition pertaining to lotteries.  No one could even begin to argue that poker is not "a game subject to chance".  In fact, virtually all games, except for chess I guess, are.

Whether the Act, as written, applies to Internet poker turns not on some arbitrary skill/chance distinction, but rather on whether Internet poker was already prohibited prior to passage of the Act.  The Act by its terms stated that it was not defining as illegal any type of Internet gambling, but was simply prohibiting certain transactions regarding Internet gambling which was already illegal under other laws, whether state or federal.  There are very good arguments, supported by the lone appellate decision addressing the issue, that Internet casino gambling is not illegal under federal law.
 
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