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ICM - standard overshove?
x walks x (Australia) 1,229 Posts. Joined 03-03-2008.
11-18-2008 5:01 AM

Is this the correct play...i know im flipping but i think i just have to take that chance!!

I wasnt sure how to check on icm as this is a 27 manner paying 1-5th

1st - $100

2nd - $72

3rd - $48


PokerStars Game #22138433568: Tournament #121239293, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level XII (800/1600) - 2008/11/17 23:24:20 ET
Table '121239293 3' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 3: x walks x (10909 in chips)
Seat 4: pickpocketb (20397 in chips)
Seat 9: 2 ACES hmm (9194 in chips)
x walks x: posts the ante 75
pickpocketb: posts the ante 75
2 ACES hmm: posts the ante 75
2 ACES hmm: posts small blind 800
x walks x: posts big blind 1600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to x walks x [4d 4h]
pickpocketb: raises 2440 to 4040
2 ACES hmm: folds
x walks x: raises 6794 to 10834 and is all-in
pickpocketb: calls 6794
*** FLOP *** [8d 3c Qs]
*** TURN *** [8d 3c Qs] [Td]
*** RIVER *** [8d 3c Qs Td] [7d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
x walks x: shows [4d 4h] (a pair of Fours)
pickpocketb: shows [Jh Qc] (a pair of Queens)
pickpocketb collected 22693 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 22693 | Rake 0
Board [8d 3c Qs Td 7d]
Seat 3: x walks x (big blind) showed [4d 4h] and lost with a pair of Fours
Seat 4: pickpocketb (button) showed [Jh Qc] and won (22693) with a pair of Queens
Seat 9: 2 ACES hmm (small blind) folded before Flop

 
 
 

CincinnatiKid (United States) 256 Posts. Joined 02-08-2005.
11-18-2008 5:04 AM - In reply to

It doesn't get anymore standard. 


x walks x (Australia) 1,229 Posts. Joined 03-03-2008.
11-18-2008 5:08 AM - In reply to

My roommate didnt seem to agree, thats why i posted it.


CincinnatiKid (United States) 256 Posts. Joined 02-08-2005.
11-18-2008 5:13 AM - In reply to

x walks x: 

My roommate didnt seem to agree, thats why i posted it.



You won't find a more standard situation than this. Your friend is a goofball.

YOU GOT YOUR MONEY IN AS A FAVORITE!

Jennifear (United States) 9,061 Posts. Joined 11-01-2005.
11-18-2008 5:21 AM - In reply to

This is a fold, going under the assumption that you have zero FE. 

Here's the Nash Equilibrium for this spot:

PU CA OC Range
BU 56.6%, 22+ Ax+ K2s+ K5o+ Q2s+ Q8o+ J2s+ J7o+ T3s+ T7o+ 95s+ 97o+ 85s+ 87o 74s+ 76o 64s+ 53s+ <<What he should be shoving
SB 9.7%, 77+ A8s+ ATo+ KJs+
BB 6.8%, 88+ AJs+ AJo+
BB 14.9%, 66+ A5s+ A8o+ KTs+ KJo+ <<What you should be calling.

He's probably not raising 56%+ here, so I'd tend to play this spot even tighter than Nash suggests.

ICM Nash Calculator Results

x walks x (Australia) 1,229 Posts. Joined 03-03-2008.
11-18-2008 5:24 AM - In reply to

Ok so he was right when he said 66+

Is it "that" bad though Jen?

He was a very active player

Edit: How do you apply ICM when you are playing mtt sngs (27/45mans) and are short stacked or does ICM not apply to these situations (do i use pokerstove for this)?


elusively (United States) 3,666 Posts. Joined 02-07-2007.
11-18-2008 7:16 AM - In reply to

 I'm thinking open-shoving ATC is more profitable than this shove.  He's folding like never, as Jennifear noted.


ch1pwrecked (United Kingdom) 398 Posts. Joined 10-21-2006.
11-18-2008 7:23 AM - In reply to

ICM applies to any tournament at any time i believe walks, essentially it just equates how many chips you have to the amount of prize equity you have at the current stage of play.

Maybe Jen can put it in easier terms than me, she recently helped me out with a similar question to yours in this thread below, hopefully it can help you out a bit.

What i've been doing is using the nash icm calculators (linked in the below article) to get the percentages, and then using pokerstove's sliding percentage scale to see the hand ranges.

EDIT: you can also see hand ranges using the nash calculator but the pokerstove is easier to see

Hope this helps.


http://www.pocketfives.com/poker-forums/7/which-icm-calculators-are-able-to-calculate-for-18-man-tournies_3F00_-_2800_also-push_2F00_fold-question_2900_-3564906/p/3564906#3564906


Jennifear (United States) 9,061 Posts. Joined 11-01-2005.
11-18-2008 11:48 AM - In reply to

x walks x: 

Ok so he was right when he said 66+

Is it "that" bad though Jen?

He was a very active player

Edit: How do you apply ICM when you are playing mtt sngs (27/45mans) and are short stacked or does ICM not apply to these situations (do i use pokerstove for this)?



Since he was "very active", then the call was not that bad at all (slightly -$EV).  66+ is correct if he is shoving 56%.  However, if he was shoving a more typical 25% (what a random will usually push here) then 44 is horribad.

You can apply ICM to this situation.  Just change the payout structures from the regular format to (100,72,48).
 
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