Poker Discussion
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CarbonPoker · Full Tilt · Cake Poker · PokerStars · Ultimate Bet · Players Only · Bodog
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so as you can see the table was quite easy lol, yea it was a pretty sick table and i had no timebank, which really sucked. So my thoughts on the river are ak87 is a good/tricky player and I def feel like he is capable of floating me twice here with air and bluffing the river. Also, ak87 is on the tighter side which made me think he doesn't try and squeak out value too too thin on the river so I should be betting, idk I have heard a good bit of different responses from people, what do people think about b/f, b/c, ch/call. Just an interesting spot where I would like to get some input about, thanks guys.
PokerStars Game #31571363240: Tournament #185961165, $100+$9 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXII (4000/8000) - 2009/08/13 2:10:51 ET
Table '185961165 23' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 3: ryanbluf (222754 in chips)
Seat 4: Jovial Gent (436604 in chips)
Seat 5: jadedjason (204356 in chips)
Seat 6: witcherd (585754 in chips)
Seat 7: tysonduke23 (305426 in chips)
Seat 8: AK87 (591149 in chips)
Seat 9: anfo500 (885957 in chips)
ryanbluf: posts the ante 800
Jovial Gent: posts the ante 800
jadedjason: posts the ante 800
witcherd: posts the ante 800
tysonduke23: posts the ante 800
AK87: posts the ante 800
anfo500: posts the ante 800
anfo500: posts small blind 4000
ryanbluf: posts big blind 8000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to witcherd [7s 8s]
Jovial Gent: folds
jadedjason: folds
witcherd: raises 11845 to 19845
tysonduke23: folds
AK87: calls 19845
anfo500: folds
ryanbluf: folds
*** FLOP *** [8c 6c 3s]
witcherd: bets 31875
AK87: calls 31875
*** TURN *** [8c 6c 3s] [2c]
witcherd: bets 72485
AK87: calls 72485
*** RIVER *** [8c 6c 3s 2c] [7h]
witcherd: ????????????
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I bet 122k and fold to a shove.
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If you say he's tight, then I don't understand why any other line besides check/call should be used?
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 rydawgsw: | |
If you say he's tight, then I don't understand why any other line besides check/call should be used?
wat
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| gutshtallin: | |
This is a pretty interesting spot, and my line would vary based on my opponent. I dont know much about AK87's game or how wide he is flatting your opens at this point. Lets assign a range of like any pair, 22-QQ. I would imagine he would be 3betting KK AA this deepstackd but there is a chance he could flat here as well. Also many suited connectors as well.
By his flats on the flop and turn, we can basically tighten his range to hands with showdown value or possible combo draws or a made hand like 45. I rarely think he is flatting two bets with air here. Therefore on the river we are basically only losing to 45 or a flush(being that we now have top two). I think we should def be bet/folding this river. We beat many hands that will call a river bet, but none that will shove, and i dont think there are enough bluffs in his range to warrant turning our hand into a "bluff catcher" by c/c.
obviously not on your level at all, but isnt a c/c alot give a lot more value than b/f (and be a little less spewy) because we're also giving him a chance to bluff ?
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| shanetrain22: | |
wat
He's saying that AK87 will only call with hands that we beat but possibly bluff when checked too. However, if he really is tight then he's probably checking back this river a good bit and we'd be missing a lot of possible value from overpairs.
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| MoneyOr2: | |
obviously not on your level at all, but isnt a c/c alot give a lot more value than b/f (and be a little less spewy) because we're also giving him a chance to bluff ?
Like I said, i dont think there are enough bluffs in his range here often enough to warrant enough value in c/c. I think your hand is strong enough to bet for value, but obv having to fold to shove..Like czar19 said..i bet roughly 1/2 pot and fold to a shove.
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well pretty over the discussion, here is the hand and results, yea having no time bank rly sucks PokerStars Game #31571363240: Tournament #185961165, $100+$9 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXII (4000/8000) - 2009/08/13 2:10:51 ET
Table '185961165 23' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 3: ryanbluf (222754 in chips)
Seat 4: Jovial Gent (436604 in chips)
Seat 5: jadedjason (204356 in chips)
Seat 6: witcherd (585754 in chips)
Seat 7: tysonduke23 (305426 in chips)
Seat 8: AK87 (591149 in chips)
Seat 9: anfo500 (885957 in chips)
ryanbluf: posts the ante 800
Jovial Gent: posts the ante 800
jadedjason: posts the ante 800
witcherd: posts the ante 800
tysonduke23: posts the ante 800
AK87: posts the ante 800
anfo500: posts the ante 800
anfo500: posts small blind 4000
ryanbluf: posts big blind 8000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to witcherd [7s 8s]
Jovial Gent: folds
jadedjason: folds
witcherd: raises 11845 to 19845
tysonduke23: folds
AK87: calls 19845
anfo500: folds
ryanbluf: folds
*** FLOP *** [8c 6c 3s]
witcherd: bets 31875
AK87: calls 31875
*** TURN *** [8c 6c 3s] [2c]
witcherd: bets 72485
AK87: calls 72485
*** RIVER *** [8c 6c 3s 2c] [7h]
witcherd: checks
AK87: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
witcherd: shows [7s 8s] (two pair, Eights and Sevens)
AK87: mucks hand
witcherd collected 266010 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 266010 | Rake 0
Board [8c 6c 3s 2c 7h]
Seat 3: ryanbluf (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: Jovial Gent folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: jadedjason folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: witcherd showed [7s 8s] and won (266010) with two pair, Eights and Sevens
Seat 7: tysonduke23 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: AK87 (button) mucked [Ah 3h]
Seat 9: anfo500 (small blind) folded before Flop
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Gags30
(United States)
4,398
Posts.
Joined
08-17-2007.
08-13-2009 10:29 PM
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In reply to
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bet/call and bet/fold are gonna be really close, and pretty read dependent. i think check/call is awful tho, as this is really a terrible board to double float on, and he's going to snap check back way too much of his range to make check/call profitable. check/fold is probably going to be better than c/c
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without looking at the results i think this is a b/f river as played cuz hes basically never coming over the top on the river as a bluff cuz hes gunna perceive his fold equity as being super low at that point
the line i like better is C/C the turn and C/C river (tho it is a little bit too defensive it gives u most value outta his float-bluffs and mid pr type hands)
when looking at the A3 result i was surprised - i dont understand y he called ur turn bet unless hes putting you on 2 barrelling overcards (prob unlikely unless u have a super laggy image).
He SHOULD put u on an overpair or set a high % of the time IMO since you raised pre and fired 2 consecutive streets which is y i like betting the river and folding to a raise cuz hes prob not gunna come over the top of you on the river unless he has u beat and most of the time hes prob calling you with 99-QQ and 67 type hands
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| witcher1984: | |
well pretty over the discussion, here is the hand and results, yea having no time bank rly sucks
PokerStars Game #31571363240: Tournament #185961165, $100+$9 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXII (4000/8000) - 2009/08/13 2:10:51 ET
Table '185961165 23' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 3: ryanbluf (222754 in chips)
Seat 4: Jovial Gent (436604 in chips)
Seat 5: jadedjason (204356 in chips)
Seat 6: witcherd (585754 in chips)
Seat 7: tysonduke23 (305426 in chips)
Seat 8: AK87 (591149 in chips)
Seat 9: anfo500 (885957 in chips)
ryanbluf: posts the ante 800
Jovial Gent: posts the ante 800
jadedjason: posts the ante 800
witcherd: posts the ante 800
tysonduke23: posts the ante 800
AK87: posts the ante 800
anfo500: posts the ante 800
anfo500: posts small blind 4000
ryanbluf: posts big blind 8000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to witcherd [7s 8s]
Jovial Gent: folds
jadedjason: folds
witcherd: raises 11845 to 19845
tysonduke23: folds
AK87: calls 19845
anfo500: folds
ryanbluf: folds
*** FLOP *** [8c 6c 3s]
witcherd: bets 31875
AK87: calls 31875
*** TURN *** [8c 6c 3s] [2c]
witcherd: bets 72485
AK87: calls 72485
*** RIVER *** [8c 6c 3s 2c] [7h]
witcherd: checks
AK87: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
witcherd: shows [7s 8s] (two pair, Eights and Sevens)
AK87: mucks hand
witcherd collected 266010 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 266010 | Rake 0
Board [8c 6c 3s 2c 7h]
Seat 3: ryanbluf (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: Jovial Gent folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: jadedjason folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: witcherd showed [7s 8s] and won (266010) with two pair, Eights and Sevens
Seat 7: tysonduke23 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: AK87 (button) mucked [Ah 3h]
Seat 9: anfo500 (small blind) folded before Flop
I dunno I would probably umm try playing better.
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| theczar19: | |
I bet 122k and fold to a shove.
i like this but i probly bet a little more
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| Gags30: | |
bet/call and bet/fold are gonna be really close, and pretty read dependent. i think check/call is awful tho, as this is really a terrible board to double float on, and he's going to snap check back way too much of his range to make check/call profitable. check/fold is probably going to be better than c/c
i agree that check/call is terrible here. i dont think hes ever gonna shove/bluff this river just cause its a terrible line for this board and makes the rest of his line make like no sense (frank said flushes dont really make sense and well hed have to flat 45s here pre which hes not gonna do too too often but idk much about him). i def think hes just trying to get the pot to showdown and he 100% can have 99-AA here. Ya he can have a set but he cant really shove for value cause nothing short of a straight/flush will call on this board. And like someone else said hes rarely going to double float you here with total air. For all these reasons it seems to be a pretty clear bet/fold.
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before reading the thread i was thinking like make it 116k and fold to a shove, after reading the thread im thinking make it like 116k and fold to a shove
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| ImaLucSac: | |
I dunno I would probably umm try playing better.
er such hate, yea i agree betting is the best line, i had 12 secs to make a decision or my hand was dead obv with 0 timebank so at the time it wasn't the most obvious bet/f. Thanks dylan tho <3.
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Wein
(United States)
8,211
Posts.
Joined
05-02-2005.
08-14-2009 11:55 AM
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In reply to
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| JDsmith9: | |
before reading the thread i was thinking like make it 116k and fold to a shove, after reading the thread im thinking make it like 116k and fold to a shove
[12:53] Wein: i'm just going to start shoving the river vs regulars
[12:53] Wein: all the time
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