Poker Discussion
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I heard about it vaguely on N82s blog a while back, and heard that they were at the Rio shooting it earlier today. As far as I know, it's gonna be about the AP/UB scandals, but I doubt its scope will be limited to that. I really dont trust the mainstream media to present this honestly; instead, I think it's gonna be very damaging to online poker in general and might set back the cause. Ive got a bad feeling a bunch of wannabe politicans will be lining up before the elections to make this an issue again. Anybody heard any specifics? Am I just being overly negative about this? Any chance this will be good for poker?
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99% this will be spun as the seedy underbelly of an unregulated industry. The best you can possibly hope for is a tacit challenge from the show to the government to rein in something that 1. obviously needs some regulatory control and 2. could be extremely lucrative if one were but to make the effort to regulate it fairly.
Anyone concerned that this will be bad for the game: IMO the damage was done when it was slapped onto the port security bill by some asshat "back to morality" Republican contingent. There are no obvious signs that I can see that it'll be undone until at least the second year of the new presidency (assuming there's a Democratic president). Banks are now actively monitoring (mostly large) transactions from the 3rd party processors that the sites are using - yes, the banks know which ones they use - and are pinching accounts accordingly. None of the letter-signing or big-name lobbyist hires (*cough* D'Amato *cough*) has done a thing to reverse this trend.
Prepare for an unflattering report that will hopefully catch the eye of some enterprising politician who can help get this thing on a path towards resolution.
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It should be a "hatchet job" --- Us online poker players were robbed of MILLIONS of dollars, how do you present that in a 'good' way? lol
I have no sympathy whatsoever for how online poker will be portrayed.
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Don't player higher stakes and you won't have to worry...or if it does occur at lower limits you won't lose enough to make it matter...problem solved. PWN THE MICROS FOR A LIVING!!!!!!!!
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Rest assured this will be a hatchet job and I hope 60 Minutes makes AP/UB the poster child for all the worst online poker could be. This industry needs a clean up and legitimacy for it to move forward. It's currently filled with questionable characters among some legitimate operators. Those questionable characters, specifically UB/AP, will do more damage and delay a reversal of IUEGA than the legit operators like Pokerstars and Full Tilt can spread good will. As it sits UB/AP has given the pro IUEGA crowd plenty of ammuntion against legalization of online poker. We dont need more of their help. UB/AP is a cancer and they will kill the whole industry in the US if left to chart thier own course.
UB/AP has to die in order for the rest of the industry to understand there are consquences for bad management, stewardship, and ownership. These guys were given a speeding ticket for robbing a bank. The "once they get their ship righted" crowd is set on making the statement to UB/AP, "Guys you can rip us off 7 ways to Tuesday but please just let us play! We need your WSOP entries! We need to be staked! Let us please have your tainted money, money stolen by your owners and employees so we are not beholden to your competition." All it says is we as individuals have a price and frankly those of you who take advantage of the situation... we'll on one hand congrats on being able to leverage your reputations...but you are all acting selfishly and without regard or resposibility for greater issues. Number one being the integrity of the online poker industry.
I hope 60 Minutes hits the industry HARD. 1) Maybe then it will somehow make the big sites start cleaning thier neighborhood against the UB/AP's in the arena. They know whats going on, take action against the bad apples people! and 2) Hopefully it will kill UB/AP off once and for all.
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Wouldn't it be nice if poker players would actually take a stance against websites allowing blatent cheating. Possibly by withdrawing their money from said sites... | | |
^^^
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While I agree with everybody that AP/UB should be put out of business, you all don't seem to mind it happening at the expense of the industry as a whole, including the legitimate sites. ONE SITE (because AP and UB are essentially the same, same owners, same people hacked em both) has proven itself sleazy, and we're dealing with it as best we can.
I dont understand how so many people have decided, based on that, the whole industry is tainted and crooked by association. You think Stars and FTP dont know there are consequences? Why do you think they have such good security and customer service? When I email Stars support, I have a response within minutes. When I report suspected collusion, they always look into it seriously. If anything, they are overprotective (judging by the constant posts about people getting their accounts closed for shady associations). These sites are what poker sites should be.
Just because online players as a whole have not banded together as we hoped to punish AP/UB, doesnt mean the whole industry should go down in flames because of some sensationalist reporting. And sad as it is to say, AP/UB will never die. Their expenses are just too low; even if they only have a few thousand players, theyll make money, just less. And their casinos add to their bottom line. Dont expect them to go away until theres regulation.
MrDevil, please explain "maybe then it will somehow make the big sites start cleaning their own house against he UB/APs in the arena"...what exactly have Stars and FTP and Bodog done wrong? And how do you expect them to act against AP/UB? JUST DONT PLAY ON THE ONE SITE THAT HAS BEEN CROOKED, it's that simple. Don't take it out on the good sites or try to screw the industry as a whole. I can't believe the negativity on this site, AN ONLINE POKER FORUM, where half the people responding are somehow convinced (with no evidence in support) that EVERY site is crooked, and the industry needs to be burned to the ground. Propose ways to hurt AP/UB, by all means, but why does every other site need to get burned? In what way have they failed?
And to PuertoKid - thanks trying to twist my words, for lack of any real argument on your part. I spent several paragraphs saying that I dont play AP/UB, that I want legitimate games on legitimate sites, and you cut and pasted the few pieces where I talk about the fish. well, the fish are part of the poker economy. Remember online poker before the boom? Neither do I; it barely existed.
If you think that online poker as we know it will exist, where you can hop into a HORSE SNG at 4am or where your $30 SNG fills up in two minutes, if all the fish leave - you're wrong. What I want is simple - honest games and lots of players. Aside from one shady site, the honest games part seems to be doing ok - I have only played in a few dishonest games out of several thousand on Stars and FTP, and each time I was compensated when the colluders were caught. And there are 100k players most hours of the day.
Seriously, it sounds like what most people are pissed about is that players havent rejected AP/UB. Yes, its disheartening. I wish there had been more players that left them. But again - why is that a reason for online poker as a whole to go down in flames? Why should Stars, or FTP, or the hundreds of thousands of players who play there, suffer because of this? Many of them (us) never play on AP/UB, so why should we pay for their mistakes? Im glad the scandal got so much coverage in the poker world, and Im glad that so many people vowed to never play there again. NOW LET IT GO. Dont play on those sites and go play somewhere good.
If you go to a second-rate fast food burger joint, and find a finger in your fries, do you demand that the government shut down every McDonalds and Burger King and ban hamburgers forever? And condemn anyone who eats burgers, even from other places? Or do you just never eat there again, and stick to more reputable providers? Im sickened by what happened at AP and UB, and I never even got cheated there. But I dont think it is reason enough for the whole industry, including the honest sites, to get destroyed. The innocent majority should not pay for the sins of a few greedy asshats.
It's a huge gamble to say "this exposure is good cuz it might bring regulation" - it might, or it might get the whole turned off forever. We have no reason to believe the former is more likely than the latter; in society at large, we have more enemies than proponents. Right now, all you have to do to protect yourself is stick to the top two or three sites, and you'll almost certainly be safe and treated well - virtually no risk. you get fair games, lots of players, all hours, all game types, good customer service, good security, etc. As opposed to taking a coinflip that things will increase some miniscule amount, or be gone forever. Think about it.
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Not to get into politics, but the "Republican contingent" isn't the only reason for IUEGA. If you take a look at the states that currently have very strict laws about online poker, you will see that they are run by democrats.
If you think that voting Demo will be the solution to this issue, you are wrong. If you think that a Demo President and congress will solve the problem, history says otherwise as well.
Just take a look at the state of Washington
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 epicatc: | |
MrDevil, please explain "maybe then it will somehow make the big sites start cleaning their own house against he UB/APs in the arena"...what exactly have Stars and FTP and Bodog done wrong? And how do you expect them to act against AP/UB?
I revised that to say ".......start cleaning their neighborhood against...." Poor word choice. Here is what they could do, for example,
(I'm not actually suggesting this but brainstorming in a proactive way against UB/AP)
Industry Association - The top sites could unify in a trade organization to the exclusion of UB/AP. Once done then they could speak as an industry against UB/AP by name.
Transparency - The only way for the community to "police" the sites is allow is limited access to data so the Nats of the world can research anomolies.
3rd party Oversite - kind of a hybrid of the 2 ideas above where we as players could go to have someone represent us when things go sideways. Someone the sites trust to view the data but not like internal security or the KGC e.g.
As far as your last 2 paragraphs go I dismiss them as not being relevant. Go back to my robbing a bank example. What do "we the people" do when the managers of the bank misappropiate bank funds. They shut down the damn bank. (See 80's savings and loan scandal and keep a future eye on WAMU).
Gambling is a problem for some just like alcohol and drugs. When it gets too pervasive in any society it becomes a problem. Poker has a gambling element and will never be baseball nor football for that reason. Hell last year the "side action" and the "Nuts" segments on ESPN last year show what kind of sick gamblers constitute the more prominent personalities in Poker. This does Poker such a horrible disservice. I sympathize with the majority and reinforces my point. If this industry is to grow we need prominent personalities who are not gambling sicko's and need sites that are not ripping people off.
Online gaming isnt going away. Part of the reason for IUEGA was to slow down overseas competitors in the US market so Las Vegas Casinos could catch up. They missed the boat on this and they had to start from zero when the boom came. Now that the US online gaming market is smaller and the Vegas casions have had time to catch up, IUEGA will go away in a way that will help Las Vegas. (I happen to know at least one of the major casino network is in Beta on an online gaming site). I expect to see in the plannable future the overseas sites in catchup mode in a post IUEGA world.
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| WillBG: | |
Just take a look at the state of Washington
Reinforcing my last point that US casinos are using their clout to prevent overseas online competition.
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Does anybody know when this will air ?
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I called 60 mins. They said check the 60 mins website on Friday's. They will announce it a few days before the Sun it airs.
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| epicatc: | |
And to PuertoKid - thanks trying to twist my words
No twisting involved--just pulled out the sentences that hi-lighted your real motivation.
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Adam
(Costa Rica)
11,354
Posts.
Joined
12-21-2004.
06-18-2008 7:14 PM
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In reply to
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| epicatc: | |
While I agree with everybody that AP/UB should be put out of business, you all don't seem to mind it happening at the expense of the industry as a whole, including the legitimate sites. ONE SITE (because AP and UB are essentially the same, same owners, same people hacked em both) has proven itself sleazy, and we're dealing with it as best we can.
Epicatc, what you're stating here is one of the commonly held misconceptions about all that happened. The UB incident was going on before UB was even owned by the same company as AP -- way back in early 2006. It wasn't announced that AP was buying UB until October of 2006, and the companies weren't associated before that.
The two things that happened were very similar, but there's no evidence that the same people were involved in them, and there's a lot of evidence to the contrary. It seems overwhelmingly likely to me that these incidents were actually perpetrated separately, and that the only association between them is that the same people (the current top level managers at AP/UB, and particularly Paul Leggett) are cleaning up both of the messes left behind.
I definitely am interested in a lot you and others have to say about this, and your opinions have a lot of validity. I am very concerned at this point with how many people are stating certain things as facts in the forums that actually aren't factually based, though--it's something to be careful about.
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I havent read all the responses, but gov't regulation of online poker will not be a good thing for the professionals. Govt regulation will only cause huge barriers of entry for the casual player to be able to play and will probably cause alot of people to leave, let alone the people that watch this show who will now never play online because they think they are being robbed. This isnt good for poker at all, let alone online poker.
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Perhaps you could clear that up for me Adam - I dont think it was specified in any of the materials released about the UB fiasco - was that perpetrated the same way as at AP (ie by means of a backdoor left by programmers and used by employees)?
And to PuertoKid - no, you didnt twist my words, you just edited them, cut and pasted different sentences together...in fact, the same dishonest editing I expect from 60 minutes soon. I specifically said I love the money, and I love the game just as much - but you just put "i love the money", and hey, all of a sudden Im in it for the greed. Tell me - when was the last time you played play money? would you play poker at all if there was no money involved? somehow i doubt it. And neither would 99% of the people out there. without the profit potential, theres no poker for us all to enjoy. when theres no money on the line, people dont even attempt to play real poker.
My motivation is that I want to keep playing poker, enjoying it, and profiting from it. If I just wanted enjoyment, Id play basketball instead. Poker is both fun and profitable, which is why I do it. Just because thats the case doesnt mean Im only motivated by greed. Im not the enemy, pal. I dont play on AP or UB. Ive written to several congressmen in support of legalization and regulation. Im just trying to be proactive and keep the good parts of online poker safe, while pushing towards regulated and legalized systems. I love how you havent adressed one actual point Ive made, just screamed "CHEATERS EVERYWHERE ZOMG THE SKY IS FALLING EVERYBODY IS SOOOO GREEDY (EXCEPT ME I PLAY TO SUPPORT AN ORPHANAGE IN THE CONGO OBV).
With the exception of "i love the extra money in my bank account", which was originally presented next to "i love to play the game and...", your example of my greed is that I dont want the fish to go away, thats what every quote you cite is about. How can you possibly not understand that WITH NO FISH, THERES NO POKER. Its not about the money. I shouldn't even really call them fish, its not about skill - its about recreational players. The vast majority of the people filling your games are weekend warriors, college students, professionals dabbling in a game here and there. IF THEY LEAVE, ONLINE POKER WILL BE CRIPPLED. Not just its profitability. You wont have the luxury of firing up a game at 4am, or having your SNGs fill in a minute, having 2000 people in a donkament, having ANY razz or triple draw or stud or HORSE. The poker economy depends not on the pros and semipros, but on recreational players. If they leave, its all over for everybody. Even if you dont care about the money at all, and just love the game, you will not be able to play the game you love nearly as easily or as much. Plain and simple.
Either propose some solutions to get what we want, or at least explain to me how making a large segment of the general population anti-poker will HELP get it legalized and regulated. Or, alternatively, GTFO since you seem to hate online poker, yet troll an online poker forum.
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